tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post518187242441879595..comments2024-02-10T18:19:36.406-08:00Comments on Newspaper Rock: Scout society stereotypes IndiansRobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01478763837213733775noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-45840654932417593082018-08-14T16:01:33.434-07:002018-08-14T16:01:33.434-07:00So I'm not going to take up a whole section te...So I'm not going to take up a whole section telling you off Rob. However I am Osage and also a member of the tribe of mic-o-say and let me be very plain here Rob, neither me nor my 2 Osage brothers involved in scouting need any help from the whitest of men such as yourself in defending our culture. We can do it on our own thank you. I have personally experienced true tribe life on my res and I would have to say that mic-o-say has done nothing to "make fun" of our traditions and in fact has paid us a great deal of respect in that they have not only done research into tribal customs but also asked the different tribes how they could improve on the ceremonies to make them more authentic, what could be done to keep these traditions alive. You embody exactly what tribes hate about white men. You stick your nose where it does not belong and try to spread hate and use political correctness as a vessel for it. You want people to have respect for native culture? How about not attempting to shit on ceremonies and traditions from other tribes that have been adapted to help future generations learn responsibility and love for a culture that most will never know. I shall say it again, we do not need help from you in defending us and I think you should keep your nose where it belongs, shoved up your own rear end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-70383249855843047032015-06-04T17:40:49.633-07:002015-06-04T17:40:49.633-07:00Just want to throw out that Wikipedia isn't th...Just want to throw out that Wikipedia isn't the best source for information. Personally, it devalues your analysis incredulously. Why don't you try it out? Dedicate your time and become a member. Then you will see exactly what it is all about. <br /><br />-FBDOWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-15718368912174745372013-06-26T19:44:53.819-07:002013-06-26T19:44:53.819-07:00My question is really simple... having been around...My question is really simple... having been around Mic-o-say for about 30 years and seeing it's benefits... who really gives a non native american "crap" what Rob thinks about Mic-o-say... time to move on to another one of the four hundred and fifty million blogs that are out there...<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-2770450273865082032009-09-20T14:41:53.458-07:002009-09-20T14:41:53.458-07:00Mic-o-Say is simply an interpretation of how Nativ...Mic-o-Say is simply an interpretation of how Native Americans MAY have acted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-43430937292062542362009-09-07T19:42:26.448-07:002009-09-07T19:42:26.448-07:00phdennis as you can see typing is not my strong p...phdennis as you can see typing is not my strong pointphdennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18021921569122904798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-13816569360300473472009-09-07T19:39:08.256-07:002009-09-07T19:39:08.256-07:00My name is Patrick Dennis (Little Watchful Buffalo...My name is Patrick Dennis (Little Watchful Buffalo ) my Father was Watchful Buffalo . And am proud to known by this this name. <br /> I became a Warrior in 1962<br />and went from there to Runner . The tapping to be a warrior was one of the proudest times in ,my childhood .My Father after being on the road for the US Government for two weeks drove 8hours so that he could be at Scout camp to present with my Claws amd welcome me into the bothehood of Mic-o-Say . The values i learned from such men as JD.Hammentree and Father Watermen and many others and most importantly MY DAD . These values cannot be taken away . <br /> Yes I could have learned these values in other areas ,but they were given to me through Mic-o-Say.<br /> We are not mocking the Our Great Native American but rather honoring themand their teaching . <br /> Remember when the Native Americans went to before the whiteman they rarely killed each other .But instead counted coos(?)<br />It was the white man who taught them to kill in earnest . .<br /> So if a group of young men are taught how to be upstanding members of society and learning a few Native AMerican rituals and cerimonies are a bad thing them bring it on .Becauswe those Ideal I learned through SCouting and the TRIBE OF MIC-O-SAY HAVE HEPED ME THROUGH SOME PRETTY DAMN TOUGH TIMES . Including the military . <br /> If you look in google count them member of the Tribe of MIC-OSAY who have gone on and served our military and in our Governmant .<br /> When you do this and see how many .How many do you count . I've been there and am amazed.phdennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18021921569122904798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-2738451734069121212009-09-03T00:00:19.272-07:002009-09-03T00:00:19.272-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.andrew arthur branthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16221580752908553670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-87561636312222958232009-08-31T08:36:44.385-07:002009-08-31T08:36:44.385-07:00If you had done more research on H. Roe Bartle, th...If you had done more research on H. Roe Bartle, then you would have come across some important information. According to http://usscouts.org/honorsociety/lonebear.asp H. Roe Bartle visited the Wind River Indian Reservation to study the values and culture of the Native American. He was not an intruder, but a humble guest. He was inducted into the Northern Arapaho Tribe as a blood brother and was sponsored into it by a Chief named Lone Bear. It was said earlier that we are given a name, and that was also true for the first Chief of Mic-O-Say. After learning about the Northern Arapaho Tribe, the Tribesmen bestowed the name of his sponsor “Lone Bear” to H. Roe Bartle. So, he did not give himself a stereotypical name, but he earned it as a sign of respect. Each Tribesmen of Mic-O-Say is given a unique name to allow them their own place in the Tribe. We try to relate words within the names that reflect the personality of the Scouter. One night in St. Joseph, MO, the Ku Klux Klan demanded to get rid of H. Roe Bartle for associating with the Native Americans. H. Roe Bartle replied to them, and I quote, “If any three or four of you want to step forward, I'll show you who is running Scouting in St. Joseph.". Even when faced by the most racist people our country has seen, the man stays true to his Scouting beliefs.<br /><br />So, in conclusion, do your readers a favor and please research a topic well before you tell them how they should feel about. The Tribe of Mic-O-Say does not wish to stereotype or mock any particular culture, but to learn from them to make our program as authentic as possible. The Tribe of Mic-O-Say allows young men to be unique and creative in their Tribal Attire. If our program were to resemble something “patriotic” like the Military, then you would lose that value to something that is “uniformed”. If the young men wish to join any branch of the Armed Forces we don’t discourage them, in fact, we honor them. However, we need to be creative and different from modern society, and the Native Americans allow us to use their culture as a positive background for these young men.<br /><br />Keeper of the Sacred Bundle: Crow BearKeeper of the Sacred Bundle: Crow Bearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-80061408598135517762009-08-31T08:34:50.683-07:002009-08-31T08:34:50.683-07:00First, let me start by stating that I do believe m...First, let me start by stating that I do believe more research on the Tribe of Mic-O-Say is required or your part. You already think we are racist for portraying a Native American culture, so when you click the link to www.micosay.org then you are already against us. However, you do try to do research on an outside source, Wikipedia. The problem with Wikipedia is that it can be changed by the public, and the public may know little about Mic-O-Say. I have seen instances where Wikipedia has been wrong. Even though the subject that I saw has no relevance to Mic-O-Say, Wikipedia should not be trusted as the single outside source for research. If you type Mic-O-Say into Google, then you will find several places that have good information. However, with the little information that you use, we try to give you an inside eye. You seem to voice that we know little about what we are talking about, and disregard what we are trying to say. To me that is disrespectful.<br /><br />The use of (as you call) “stupid mishmash of stereotypes” is necessary to keep our program authentic. The use of names like Tom-Tom-Beater, Sachem, and Medicine Man keep our young men interested. If we only used one culture, then it probably would be a mockery, but we don’t for that very reason. We try to incorporate our Tribe from Several different Tribes because we can see that several Native American cultures have so much to offer. We are not trying to mock or stereotype any Native American culture, but merely do our best to make young men want to join so that they can enrich their Scouting experience. H. Roe Bartle picked a great theme to grab attention. All Mic-O-Say Tribesmen are members of Boy Scouts of America. H. Roe Bartle knew that he had to pick something “American”. He decided to incorporate the oldest living American culture into something that celebrates the Native Americans and strengthen the Scouting program. If the true Native Americans that we DO have in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say don’t see the harm and are NOT offended by this representation, then why should anyone else? The ceremonies that we have are organized by the young men. You said earlier that you have no problem with teaching discipline and responsibility; however, our ceremonies are our method of teaching discipline and responsibility. This method has worked for 70 years, and has been changed constantly so that we can be as politically correct as possible.<br /><br />Keeper of the Sacred Bundle: Crow BearKeeper of the Sacred Bundle: Crow Bearnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-66076917585768860212009-08-29T19:06:17.704-07:002009-08-29T19:06:17.704-07:00Rob, any good author knows that a part of writing ...Rob, any good author knows that a part of writing an argument is being able to listen to the opposing side. All of the arguments that I have read from my fellow members hold true merit and every response that I have seen from you is of a hostile tone and extreme bias. My ethnicity is not important because what I do know is that my respect for the native tribes of America is more because of this program. I have even studied native traditions, culture, and even spirituality at my university. All of these classes were taught by members of nearby tribes. I was open about my involvement in this program and some had heard of it and not a single one of them ever considered the fact that we might be mocking them. In fact I was invited to a sweat by one of my instructors which, if you really do know your Native tribal customs, is a very rare occurrence for non-members to participate in this tradition. Ignorance is bliss except for when you want to insult a program with a proven track record for excellence and success. The first thing that I would point out to you is I can tell your ignorance just by the title. If you ask any native, or what you call "indian," they do not like this name because it is based off a name they got from another ignorant man. They prefer to be referred to by their specific tribe. My initial reaction to your article was one of anger because first off you are attacking a program that has done nothing but respect native cultures and traditions. By no means do we claim to be perfect. If something comes to our attention about something we are doing that is insulting then you can be sure it will be addressed and corrected. <br />Rob, I pray upon you the blessings of the Great Spirit so long as you shall live. And I charge you that before you attack our program again you do some research of your own from sources that can be trusted besides Wikipedia.<br />Yours truly, <br />Keeper of the Sacred Bundle Smoke Hand<br />P.S. In our tribe (mic-o-say of St Joseph Missouri) our names are given to us based off of our personality traits, events in our life, skills, and family, much like the traditional way of naming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-40400775111399321952009-08-29T07:51:42.128-07:002009-08-29T07:51:42.128-07:00You are calling the Tribe of Mic-o-say a sterotype...You are calling the Tribe of Mic-o-say a sterotype when you should be looking at your own website.<br /><br />Blue Corn Comics!?!<br /><br />If I were to be as naive as you I would say you are doing nothing but bringing down the Native American culture.<br /><br />Please be a serious writer and get all of the facts before making accusations. Just reading information from the internet one could believe some very outlandish things!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-72282482275658691102009-08-29T07:04:49.084-07:002009-08-29T07:04:49.084-07:00The Tribe's initial customs and traditions are...The Tribe's initial customs and traditions are primarily those of the plains Indians of Wyoming. It was there that our founder, H. Roe. Bartle was inducted into a genuine Arapaho tribe. Over the years customs from other tribes were added and blended in order to expand the program, make it more compatible and encouraging to Scouting, and to have a more broad representation of various Native American nations.<br /><br />These are the reasons for Sachems and Chieftains both being separate leadership responsibilities in our tribe. It is most certainly not out of ignorance or deliberate mocking.<br /><br />That being said, I thank you for your points. We do listen and we do take genuine Native American ideas, ideals, and opinions very seriously because we do have a great deal of respect for all Native American cultures. Many of our customs have been revised or changed as we learn more about the genuine article. For example, music in one of our ceremonies was changed from a chant to flute when it was learned by some tribesmen that Native Americans do not stop chants in the middle, only when the chant is complete.KSB Lightning Runnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-88628907118841242962009-08-05T22:05:50.159-07:002009-08-05T22:05:50.159-07:00well mr I have an older sibling in why don't y...well mr I have an older sibling in why don't you get involved because maybe then you will see that there is no mocking involved!!! HaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-68568225065566675322009-07-16T12:41:00.174-07:002009-07-16T12:41:00.174-07:00I agree with many points throughout this tread. G...I agree with many points throughout this tread. Grown white men wearing Indian attire and attempting to dumb down their vocabulary and speak stereotypically like a Native American from the movies is interesting in itself. Especially since the White Man took this country from the Native Americans by force. It's like spitting on their graves if they had them.<br /><br />I also agree that the entire "show" would not be necessary to teach the principals of "behavior" and "character" these organizations want these participants to learn.<br /><br />I also agree that a white guy has no place speaking on behalf of any recognized Native American Tribe, regardless of how well read he is or what his resource is. Let the Native American Tribes speak to the subject. They would obviously be the ones offended, they don't need a white guy defending them, not now and not in the past.<br /><br />These organizations produce countless good people year after year after year, generation after generation by capturing the imaginations of young people who might otherwise spend their time finding trouble in their own communities. Some, not all of the participants need a "path" and "direction" as they do not get it from their loser parents IF the are around at all. These organizations contribute far more to the society that we live in today than they take from it by prentending to be a Native American.<br /><br />So, if at the cost of a stereotype, these organizations are producing more positive, contributing members of society, so be it.<br /><br />Stereotypes are a human condition and will always exist. Doing our best to avoid them is a good practice indeed, but we will never rid the human race of stereotypes. People of the same race, color and bloodlines stereotype each other based on words written and rewritten over thousands of years on paper, by countless human hands and continue to wage war on each other because of it. It is again a human condition.<br /><br />These youth organizations are exercising a positive, attractive approach to influencing/teaching young people to behave with character, respectfully, through faux American Indian Ceremonies. It's not a bad thing, it's simply a way of teaching and delivering a positive message.<br /><br />Not unlike the various Religious organizations throughout the world. Their ceremonies are "show" as well and stereotypical. You do go to church I am sure and likely have opinions about that as well.<br /><br />These youth organizations are giving countless young people something to believe in and focus on and it works, year after year, generation after generation and creates a brotherhood and network that will last them a lifetime and serve their communities well.<br /><br />So, let them continue their good work and encourage them to constantly improve their teachings of Native American life, traits and values and stop trying to tear them down.<br /><br />Find something else to complain about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-70836842942005935112009-04-13T06:48:00.000-07:002009-04-13T06:48:00.000-07:00Amazingly enough... we have true blood Native Amer...Amazingly enough... we have true blood Native Americans in the tribe! Wow... what's there take on the situation? Maybe you should ask them? Also, we use faux costuming materials to protect wildlife, HOWEVER if you have true liniage you have the right to use traditional costuming materials.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-76064280229716593942009-04-12T18:56:00.000-07:002009-04-12T18:56:00.000-07:00I have an older sibling who was in micosay, and i ...I have an older sibling who was in micosay, and i have attended a few dances. it DOES mock native americans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-85476592255260929142009-04-06T22:10:00.000-07:002009-04-06T22:10:00.000-07:00by the way wikipedia can be edited therefore you m...by the way wikipedia can be edited therefore you may have put that there but any tribesmen that reads this or that know that information you got was very incorrect. We are not here to mock or copy anyone or to be racist. Please use a credible source next time!! Heck call us we would love to tell you the CORRECT information. Thanks for your time!!! I hope you have a great day and life and more credible sources!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-62065606416486055932009-04-06T22:04:00.000-07:002009-04-06T22:04:00.000-07:00this has just got way out of hand. Even worse with...this has just got way out of hand. Even worse with your follow up article that you attached. What do you care what we do. Do u get paid to write these if so your boss is going crazy. If you have a problem with something get the correct damn information first because guess what our tribe is not going anywhere!! Ha what now??? Get a life and thanks for your worthless time!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-47403655689864840462009-04-06T19:17:00.000-07:002009-04-06T19:17:00.000-07:00As for "why does a white guy from California care ...As for "why does a white guy from California care about a group that he seems to know little about?": Why shouldn't I care about Native stereotyping? As far as I'm concerned, stereotypes that hurt one group hurt everyone.<BR/><BR/>And I don't have to know much about the Tribe of Mic-O-Say to know that it stereotypes Indians. With all your verbiage, that's the key point you haven't been able to address.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478763837213733775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-65629267249998792009-03-06T04:51:00.000-08:002009-03-06T04:51:00.000-08:00Nice try, but all I see here is a lot of irrelevan...Nice try, but all I see here is a lot of irrelevant verbiage. Your comments basically didn't address my claim that the Tribe of Mic-O-Say stereotypes Indians. <BR/><BR/>For my full response, see <A HREF="http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/03/educating-scouts-about-stereotypes.html" REL="nofollow">Educating Scouts About Stereotypes</A>.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478763837213733775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-44631638338071673632009-03-04T08:44:00.000-08:002009-03-04T08:44:00.000-08:00I agree with much what both the blogger and the re...I agree with much what both the blogger and the responders--on each side of this argument have said. It is imperative that we caucasain americans respect the culture of native americans. However, the post begs the question, why does a white guy from California care about a group that he seems to know little about? <BR/><BR/>Also, I don't believe that it has been said that the Micosay program was developed in conjunction with a Native American chief that was good friends with Micosay's founder (Bartle). The program has changed over the years, yes. But, the core still remains. As is always true, some will inevitably agree with a program, and some will disagree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-91012704708143863812009-01-30T12:36:00.000-08:002009-01-30T12:36:00.000-08:00It is unfortunate that someone "Rob" can have such...It is unfortunate that someone "Rob" can have such an opinion without first witnessing the program for himself, or second create and provide a better solution.<BR/><BR/>Anyone can "throw rocks", anyone can be negative and drag people down.<BR/><BR/>Mic-o-say does NOT mock Native Americans. Its traditions help build character in young men. There are few programs that can claim success beyond what Mic-o-say can claim.<BR/><BR/>I am glad that we have few such people. I only stumbled onto this site, and found his comments very narrow minded.<BR/><BR/>Brother Tribesmen, you have been very patient, and considerate of this person. You have renewed my belief in the goals that were set so many years ago.<BR/><BR/>I now live in Michigan, but the lessons taught many years ago will always be my guide. I will be returning to Bartle once again this Summer with my son.<BR/><BR/>Keeping the faith with you,<BR/><BR/><BR/>Tod Landis<BR/>TTB - Exploding Fire RockAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-57975867797104648702009-01-30T11:49:00.000-08:002009-01-30T11:49:00.000-08:00even your comic is sterotypes indianseven your comic is sterotypes indiansdrake X Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06876667122037102925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-71103939647608162142009-01-30T11:47:00.000-08:002009-01-30T11:47:00.000-08:00Tribe, group of people sharing customs, language, ...Tribe, group of people sharing customs, language, and territory<BR/><BR/>scouting<BR/><BR/>friendship & leadeship<BR/><BR/>english<BR/><BR/>camp geiger<BR/><BR/>no.... can't <BR/><BR/>Hitler took the swastika<BR/><BR/>The swastika shape was used by some Native Americans. It has been found in excavations of Mississippian-era sites in the Ohio valley. It was widely used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo. Among various tribes, the swastika carried different meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clan; to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling winds (tsil no'oli'), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals (after learning of the Nazi association, the Navajo discontinued use of the symbol).[36] A brightly colored First Nations saddle featuring swastika designs is on display at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum in Canada.[37]<BR/><BR/>wait i am being sterotypical shoot....what are is american gonna do. <BR/><BR/>that's right....i am upset... you have attacked an program..made fun of two people...attacked our program... why don;t you see the program.<BR/><BR/>what is next McDonalds...wait they can and will sue you....if you make fun of clown...aren't they being....<BR/><BR/><BR/>scout<BR/><BR/>1. a soldier, warship, airplane, etc., employed in reconnoitering. <BR/>2. a person sent out to obtain information. <BR/>3. Sports. <BR/>a. a person who observes and reports on the techniques, players, etc., of opposing teams. <BR/>b. a person sent out by a team to observe and recommend new talent for recruitment. <BR/>4. a talent scout, as in the entertainment field. <BR/>5. an act or instance of reconnoitering, inspecting, observing, etc. <BR/>6. (sometimes cap.) a Boy Scout or Girl Scout. <BR/>7. Informal.a person: He's a good scout. <BR/>8. a man acting as servant to a student at Oxford University.drake X Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06876667122037102925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29769707.post-82404408939426388202009-01-30T11:32:00.000-08:002009-01-30T11:32:00.000-08:00I’ve seen young boys grow into young men and adult...I’ve seen young boys grow into young men and adults, displaying discipline,<BR/>good manners and qualities not seen in other areas!!!!!<BR/><BR/>Is that next having youth is this Stereotype oh no....<BR/>what in the heck is the traditional practice of choosing Indian names...,drake X Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06876667122037102925noreply@blogger.com