Writerfella here -- Find and present that fabled 'interview' on this website and allow the rest of us to see what has been claimed as its content. Otherwise, so far, it languishes as a 'rumor' and the rest of us only know what others have said it contains. That is no way to convince this blog's public one way or another... All Best Russ Bates 'writerfella'
I linked to the source of this stereotype, as I generally do. Follow the link and read what it says.
Jokay Dowell says Gibson did make the alleged comment and "Anonymous" says he didn't. Until I see a more definitive report, the posting stays.
I did qualify my comments by saying Gibson apparently said this or seems to be saying that. Not that I'm worried, but that's enough to protect me from a libel charge.
Jokay Dowell didn’t write that Mel Gibson ‘claimed that the poverty of the Maya people is due to the "excesses of their ancestors."’ Dowell wrote that an ABC segment made this claim.
A look at the Nov 23, 2006 Primetime transcript shows that the offending comment was contained in narration by ABC journalist John Quiã’ones:
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) But they and their gods were getting hungrier. The Maya civilization was destroying itself from within with greed.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
They were burning more trees than needed to. They were laying this plaster floor like, instead of a floor this thick, they were laying the 20, 30 centimeters thick, you see. Why do you need a floor that thick when you already have an existing floor? It's that kind of abuse of the system that I think caused them tremendous grief in the long run.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) Their rapacious appetite began to corrode their own greatness. And after 100 of years of conquest, their empire began to crumble.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) Most archeologists believe its collapse was a result of warfare with neighboring states. Wars over scarce resources like food and especially water. But there was something else, excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
And why were they doing that? Because they could.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) Destroying ourselves from within.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
Why do people urinate in gold-plated toilets today? Because they can. Why do you need a Hummer in downtown LA? Because you can.
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
Disposable razors, you can understand, but disposable telephones? They got them. It's like, 'I'll use it for a month and throw it away." It's conspicuous consumption because we can.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) You literally are shouting that message out.
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
That's right. And I have to confess. I have urinated in a gold-plated toilet. But that was at my agent's house.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) Gibson's "Apocalypto" may be a warning to us all, but it echoes from the memories of the Mayas' own corrupted past. Today, the children of these god-like kings are scattered, impoverished by the excesses of their ancestors.
To be precise, John Quinones made the "excesses" claim in his voiceover. He was echoing Gibson's themes in Apocalypto and Gibson concurred with him. But Gibson didn't utter the claim himself.
Anyway, thanks for the transcript. I searched for it at the time but couldn't find it. I'll update the posting in my Stereotype of the Month contest.
How do you know that Gibson concurred with Quiã’ones? Did you spend Thanksgiving with the Gibsons watching Primetime when Mel would have heard this remark for the first time? Or can you read his mind?
You can infer Gibson’s opinions from what he actually says, not from what you want him to believe. Anything else, dare I say it, is stereotyping.
In no way during the Primetime interview did Gibson “blame the victim.” Here are his actual remarks concerning the modern Maya:
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) What do you hope that modern-day Mayans take away from this?
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
I can only go by the people that worked with us, how they reacted. They were really positive, enthusiastic, moved that we explored the culture, that we - that we spoke that language that many of them are ashamed to speak now at school, other kids make fun of them (makes noise).
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) And what do you hope they learn from you?
It's your opinion that Gibson had no input into the voiceover and didn't hear it until it was broadcast. My opinion is that someone with Gibson's clout would've known about the voiceover and contributed to it.
More to the point, Gibson and Hansen responded to some of Quinones's comments on camera. For instance, when Quinones said "But there was something else, excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem," Gibson and Hansen had the opportunity to agree or disagree. They agreed.
Quinones's in-person remarks were similar to his voiceover remarks, which leads me to conclude that Gibson was familiar with both. In short, the burden is on you to prove Gibson didn't know what Quinones was saying about Apocalypto. Justify your claim with something other than speculation or my posting stands.
Let's note that Hansen was the expert Gibson hired to justify his stereotypical views of the Maya. Hansen was present in this interview because he was Gibson's paid employee.
Therefore, we can conclude with confidence that Gibson agreed with Hansen and vice versa. This is evident in their work on Apocalypto and in their comments here.
The whole theme of Gibson's Apocalypto is blaming the victim--i.e., blaming the Maya for being too barbaric and savage to survive. He's said this several times in several ways, so that isn't just my interpretation. Here's a typical statement of his beliefs:
Despite his renewed commitment to sobriety, Gibson still seems drawn to controversy.
He now says that "Apocalypto's" themes of a civilization squandering precious resources, including men in war, make him think of the Bush administration and Iraq.
When asked whether the film was a warning, Gibson said: "In a sense. It's a little bit like. … Look at this civilization. They're not around anymore. What were they doing? Why?"
"There were wars," he said. "There were famines. There was destruction of the environment. There was conspicuous consumption. … No regard for human life at some points."
Now you’re just being ridiculous. Journalists don’t extend editorial control to their interview subjects.
As should be obvious to any disinterested reader of the transcript, the Quiã’ones’ quote you cite (“…excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem”) was a scripted remark recorded later.
If you still don’t believe me, then buy a video recording.
You appear less interested in truth and accuracy than in scoring points. In reality you are doing more harm than help to the causes you think you’re aiding.
Learn to read, friend. I didn't say Gibson controlled the broadcast. I said he was probably aware of the statements being made.
You're daydreaming if you think Primetime just happened to catch Gibson and Hansen nattering about Apocalypto at random. Even if they weren't interacting with Quinones directly--which you have no knowledge of--they were reacting to off-screen input. They were responding to Quinones or someone commenting on Apocalypto's themes.
Why should I buy a recording of the show when you've provided a transcript? Again, it's self-evident that Primetime asked Gibson and Hansen about the Maya being done in by their excesses. And it's self-evident that Gibson and Hansen agreed with this thesis.
Let us know when you come up with a better argument than "I imagine Gibson had no idea what ABC was going to say and just coincidentally talked about conspicuous consumption." Your position is naive to the point of disingenuousness. Why do you think Gibson and Hansen responded as they did if Primetime didn't prompt them with Quinones's statements?
Moreover, if Gibson didn't like the interview's implications, he was free to dispute them after the fact. Did he? No. That's prima facie evidence that he concurred with the interview's thrust.
When something doesn't go the way Gibson wants--such as the infamous shouting match at CSUN--he or his people spin the incident afterward. No spin implies no problem with the outcome. Again, you're being naive if you think Gibson allowed a message he disagreed with to go out unchallenged.
And regardless of what Gibson said in this interview, he's blamed the Maya in other interviews--for instance, the one I quoted. Despite the many theories about the Maya's "collapse"--about whether even it happened--Gibson asserts that they did themselves in. Therefore, it's accurate to say Gibson is guilty of blaming the victim.
Writerfella here -- This is why writerfella allows responses in this blog to go on as long as they do. First, he must hear what others are saying, and then he analyzes what is being said. Anyone who accesses this blog must do the same. Thus, you learn from the speakers what their own personal opinions are, and then you can compare those opinions with your own. Any of writerfella's posts on this website have been of the same quality. Listen to what is being said, compare it to your own values, and then you know the truth behind what is being expressed. Welcome to the world of writerfella... Alll Best Russ Bates 'writerfella'
Anonymous, you'll be glad to know I updated my posting to reflect that Gibson didn't utter the "excesses of their ancestors" remark. I think I've made it clear who's guilty of saying what.
Writerfella here --
ReplyDeleteFind and present that fabled 'interview' on this website and allow the rest of us to see what has been claimed as its content. Otherwise, so far, it languishes as a 'rumor' and the rest of us only know what others have said it contains. That is no way to convince this blog's public one way or another...
All Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
This is libel. I saw that interview and Gibson didn’t say blame the Maya for the "excesses of their ancestors."
ReplyDeleteGibson DID criticize conspicuous consumption in modern America, such as disposable phones. He made a joke about his agent's gold-plated toilet.
The ABC special was a very sympathetic look at the current plight of the Maya, BTW.
I linked to the source of this stereotype, as I generally do. Follow the link and read what it says.
ReplyDeleteJokay Dowell says Gibson did make the alleged comment and "Anonymous" says he didn't. Until I see a more definitive report, the posting stays.
I did qualify my comments by saying Gibson apparently said this or seems to be saying that. Not that I'm worried, but that's enough to protect me from a libel charge.
Jokay Dowell didn’t write that Mel Gibson ‘claimed that the poverty of the Maya people is due to the "excesses of their ancestors."’ Dowell wrote that an ABC segment made this claim.
ReplyDeleteA look at the Nov 23, 2006 Primetime transcript shows that the offending comment was contained in narration by ABC journalist John Quiã’ones:
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) But they and their gods were getting hungrier. The Maya civilization was destroying itself from within with greed.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
They were burning more trees than needed to. They were laying this plaster floor like, instead of a floor this thick, they were laying the 20, 30 centimeters thick, you see. Why do you need a floor that thick when you already have an existing floor? It's that kind of abuse of the system that I think caused them tremendous grief in the long run.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) Their rapacious appetite began to corrode their own greatness. And after 100 of years of conquest, their empire began to crumble.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) Most archeologists believe its collapse was a result of warfare with neighboring states. Wars over scarce resources like food and especially water. But there was something else, excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
And why were they doing that? Because they could.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) Destroying ourselves from within.
DOCTOR RICHARD HANSEN (ANTHROPOLOGY PROFESSOR
Why do people urinate in gold-plated toilets today? Because they can. Why do you need a Hummer in downtown LA? Because you can.
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
Disposable razors, you can understand, but disposable telephones? They got them. It's like, 'I'll use it for a month and throw it away." It's conspicuous consumption because we can.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) You literally are shouting that message out.
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
That's right. And I have to confess. I have urinated in a gold-plated toilet. But that was at my agent's house.
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) Gibson's "Apocalypto" may be a warning to us all, but it echoes from the memories of the Mayas' own corrupted past. Today, the children of these god-like kings are scattered, impoverished by the excesses of their ancestors.
Okay. I stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteTo be precise, John Quinones made the "excesses" claim in his voiceover. He was echoing Gibson's themes in Apocalypto and Gibson concurred with him. But Gibson didn't utter the claim himself.
Anyway, thanks for the transcript. I searched for it at the time but couldn't find it. I'll update the posting in my Stereotype of the Month contest.
How do you know that Gibson concurred with Quiã’ones? Did you spend Thanksgiving with the Gibsons watching Primetime when Mel would have heard this remark for the first time? Or can you read his mind?
ReplyDeleteYou can infer Gibson’s opinions from what he actually says, not from what you want him to believe. Anything else, dare I say it, is stereotyping.
In no way during the Primetime interview did Gibson “blame the victim.” Here are his actual remarks concerning the modern Maya:
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) What do you hope that modern-day Mayans take away from this?
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
I can only go by the people that worked with us, how they reacted. They were really positive, enthusiastic, moved that we explored the culture, that we - that we spoke that language that many of them are ashamed to speak now at school, other kids make fun of them (makes noise).
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) And what do you hope they learn from you?
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
(Speaking in foreign language).
JOHN QUIÑONES (ABC NEWS)
(Off-camera) It can be done.
MEL GIBSON (DIRECTOR
Yeah, anything, anything.
It's your opinion that Gibson had no input into the voiceover and didn't hear it until it was broadcast. My opinion is that someone with Gibson's clout would've known about the voiceover and contributed to it.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, Gibson and Hansen responded to some of Quinones's comments on camera. For instance, when Quinones said "But there was something else, excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem," Gibson and Hansen had the opportunity to agree or disagree. They agreed.
Quinones's in-person remarks were similar to his voiceover remarks, which leads me to conclude that Gibson was familiar with both. In short, the burden is on you to prove Gibson didn't know what Quinones was saying about Apocalypto. Justify your claim with something other than speculation or my posting stands.
Let's note that Hansen was the expert Gibson hired to justify his stereotypical views of the Maya. Hansen was present in this interview because he was Gibson's paid employee.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, we can conclude with confidence that Gibson agreed with Hansen and vice versa. This is evident in their work on Apocalypto and in their comments here.
The whole theme of Gibson's Apocalypto is blaming the victim--i.e., blaming the Maya for being too barbaric and savage to survive. He's said this several times in several ways, so that isn't just my interpretation. Here's a typical statement of his beliefs:
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Story?id=2670750&page=3
Despite his renewed commitment to sobriety, Gibson still seems drawn to controversy.
He now says that "Apocalypto's" themes of a civilization squandering precious resources, including men in war, make him think of the Bush administration and Iraq.
When asked whether the film was a warning, Gibson said: "In a sense. It's a little bit like. … Look at this civilization. They're not around anymore. What were they doing? Why?"
"There were wars," he said. "There were famines. There was destruction of the environment. There was conspicuous consumption. … No regard for human life at some points."
Now you’re just being ridiculous. Journalists don’t extend editorial control to their interview subjects.
ReplyDeleteAs should be obvious to any disinterested reader of the transcript, the Quiã’ones’ quote you cite (“…excessive consumption of those resources by a population that wound up destroying its ecosystem”) was a scripted remark recorded later.
If you still don’t believe me, then buy a video recording.
You appear less interested in truth and accuracy than in scoring points. In reality you are doing more harm than help to the causes you think you’re aiding.
Learn to read, friend. I didn't say Gibson controlled the broadcast. I said he was probably aware of the statements being made.
ReplyDeleteYou're daydreaming if you think Primetime just happened to catch Gibson and Hansen nattering about Apocalypto at random. Even if they weren't interacting with Quinones directly--which you have no knowledge of--they were reacting to off-screen input. They were responding to Quinones or someone commenting on Apocalypto's themes.
Why should I buy a recording of the show when you've provided a transcript? Again, it's self-evident that Primetime asked Gibson and Hansen about the Maya being done in by their excesses. And it's self-evident that Gibson and Hansen agreed with this thesis.
Let us know when you come up with a better argument than "I imagine Gibson had no idea what ABC was going to say and just coincidentally talked about conspicuous consumption." Your position is naive to the point of disingenuousness. Why do you think Gibson and Hansen responded as they did if Primetime didn't prompt them with Quinones's statements?
Moreover, if Gibson didn't like the interview's implications, he was free to dispute them after the fact. Did he? No. That's prima facie evidence that he concurred with the interview's thrust.
When something doesn't go the way Gibson wants--such as the infamous shouting match at CSUN--he or his people spin the incident afterward. No spin implies no problem with the outcome. Again, you're being naive if you think Gibson allowed a message he disagreed with to go out unchallenged.
And regardless of what Gibson said in this interview, he's blamed the Maya in other interviews--for instance, the one I quoted. Despite the many theories about the Maya's "collapse"--about whether even it happened--Gibson asserts that they did themselves in. Therefore, it's accurate to say Gibson is guilty of blaming the victim.
Writerfella here --
ReplyDeleteThis is why writerfella allows responses in this blog to go on as long as they do. First, he must hear what others are saying, and then he analyzes what is being said. Anyone who accesses this blog must do the same. Thus, you learn from the speakers what their own personal opinions are, and then you can compare those opinions with your own. Any of writerfella's posts on this website have been of the same quality. Listen to what is being said, compare it to your own values, and then you know the truth behind what is being expressed. Welcome to the world of writerfella...
Alll Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
Anonymous, you'll be glad to know I updated my posting to reflect that Gibson didn't utter the "excesses of their ancestors" remark. I think I've made it clear who's guilty of saying what.
ReplyDelete