Selected Death Tolls for Wars, Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century
By Matthew White
1. 55 million Second World War, 20C
2. 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine), 20C
3. 40 million Mongol Conquests, 13C
4. 36 million An Lushan Revolt, 8C
5. 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty, 17C
6. 20 million Taiping Rebellion, 19C
7. 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians, 15C-19C
Judging by how much space he gives it, here's the crux of White's essay:
Consider the Powhatans of Virginia. As I mentioned earlier, Stannard cites estimates that the population was 100,000 before contact. In the same paragraph, he states that European depredations and disease had reduced this population to a mere 14,000 by the time the English settled Jamestown in 1607. Now, come on; should we really blame the English for 86,000 deaths that occured before they even arrived? Sure, he hints at pre-Jamestown "depredations", but he doesn't actually list any. As far as I can tell, the handful of European ventures into the Chesapeake region before 1607 were too small to do much depredating, and in what conflicts there were, the Europeans often got the worst of it.
Think of it this way: if the Europeans had arrived with the most benign intentions and behaved like perfect guests, or for that matter, if Aztec sailors had been the ones to discover Europe instead of vice versa, then the Indians would still have been exposed to unfamiliar diseases and the population would still have been scythed by massive epidemics, but we'd just lump it into the same category as the Black Death, i.e. bad luck.
White wonders if we can blame the English for the deaths that occurred before they arrived. No, we can blame the Spanish for those deaths.
If an Aztec ship had sailed to Europe, only its sailors would've been exposed to disease. They would've died on the trip or developed antibodies and survived.
Final answer
I've answered White's charge several times before. You can find one such answer in Genocide by Any Other Name.... To quote myself:
Or to put it another way, how many doctors did they send or hospitals did they build when they saw the Indians dying? How many Indians did they treat medically the same as they treated their own people? If there's a tale of a Florence Nightengale type ministering to America's Natives, I'm afraid I missed it.
To extend my previous analogy, if you break into someone's house with a known killer as a partner, intending "only" to rob the house, and your partner kills 90% of the house's inhabitants while you stand by and watch, how guilty are you of those deaths?
We could keep going with these analogies. If you lock someone in the basement and he dies of an infection from a scratch, are you guilty? If you forcibly remove someone from his house and he dies of pneumonia in the cold, are you guilty? Yes. I believe the crime would be involuntary manslaughter and the punishment would be 10 or more years in jail.
Writerfella here --
ReplyDeleteTwo items: the earliest European colony that 'vanished' in point of fact died out because the local Natives were dying due to introduced diseases. Thus, that colony starved because of the depopulation of Native inhabitants. Few Natives remained with whom to trade and pestilence has effects that can cut two ways simultaneously. Only the mysterious word 'Croatoan' remained as a clue...
And American population archaeologists in 1996 published controversial studies that estimated the pre-Columbian Native population of North America to have been in the ranges between 100 millions and 110 millions, thus the higher average estimates shown in White's charts. The figures always will remain both varying and disputed simply because EuroMan wants the American continents seen mostly as having been 'empty' so that it appears the lands were unpopulated and thus ripe for occupation. The lands were 'emptied' rather than 'empty,' and little of the original cooperative ecologies remain from pre-Columbian times...
All Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
100 to 110 millions for the US only would be way too high: that is such a concentration that the country would had to have been filled with many large cities in 1492.
ReplyDeleteAny idea how big the Powhatan territory was?
It might be a more reasonable figure if you included ,all of North America, down to Panama, because there were indeed large cities in Mexico, etc.
According to its title, the chart covers the entire Western Hemisphere. We don't know if the compiler meant to say this, or if he failed to distinguish between estimates for North America and for all the Americas.
ReplyDeleteI think I read that South America was the most heavily populated "America" in pre-Columbian times, followed by Central America and the rest of North America. So it's not a trivial matter to commingle North America and Western Hemisphere estimates.
Another factor is that North America is generally defined to include Central America, which isn't a separate continent. So if people are claiming a figure for "North America," do they mean the US and Canada...the US, Canada, and Mexico...or the entire continent to the Colombian border?
Actually Dmarks the country was filled with large cities, larger than European cites, and remember native people are all 'tree huggers' so this would totally be possible, as they would have been livin highly sustainable lives... Read a book
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I scoffed when I read this. But then I realized what sort of population concentration you can get with very tall old-growth trees, and hundreds of people hugging each tree. One grove easily becomes a city of thousands.
ReplyDeleteWriterfella here --
ReplyDeleteWe now realize that DMarks is a EuroMan Hugger, and so sarcastically (hyperbolically?) plays off any and all other posts here to his own amusement and entertainment. Looking at the photo, mayhaps we also should realize that DMarks is Rob Schultz's secret identity! OMG, has anyone ever photographed DMarks and Rob together at the same time? And does 'DMarks' actually stand for 'Da Marks In Da Sand?' The question becomes: which one of them can fly?
All Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
Tottka here--
ReplyDeleteNumbers can, and will, be crunched ad nauseum, but the fact remains that EuroMan was the first illegal immigrant and his intentions were less than honorable. I am a "non-Indian", however, my wife is 100%, card carrying, Native American and a full Tribal member by birth. Our two offspring are also card carrying Tribal members at 50% blood quantum. Therefore, it is a given as to the focus of my loyalties.
The persistent attempt to annihilate the indigenous population of the western hemisphere over the last several hundred years is not unique. Consider the fate of the Ainu, Picts, Caaninites etc. "Man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds."
When is the last time you hugged a EuroMan, Writerfella?
ReplyDeleteWriterfella here --
ReplyDeleteSaturday night, on the dance floor at BOOM! in Oklahoma City! He was Nick, 26, and wanted to take writerfella home (couldn't happen). Thanks for asking!
All Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
My name is Schmidt, Russ, not Schultz. Oops, you did it again: made another mistake.
ReplyDeleteThe Ainu live in Japan, of course, so they aren't indigenous to the Western Hemisphere.
Tenochtitlán may have been bigger than any city in Europe, but I doubt the Americas were full of such cities. See the following postings for more information:
http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/Mexicoweb/factfile/Unique-facts-Mexico8.htm
Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés arrived in Tenochtitlan on November 8, 1519. At this time it is believed that the city was amongst the largest in the world alongside Paris and Constantinople. The most common estimates put the population at around 200,000 to 300,000 people.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/aztecs_and_cortes.html
Tenochtitlán was larger, more beautiful and more complex than any European city at the time. The population of the lake city was some 200,000-300,000 people, at a time when London’s numbered about 40,000 and only 65,000 people lived in Paris.
Writerfella here --
ReplyDeleteNonsense, Rob! That cheap white toupe is nothing but an obviously failed attempt at disguise! The problem has become, however, that you are wont to allow that rug to do your talking whenever you glue it into place. One might fool some of the people on this blog some of the time, but those dumb comic book X-Ray Specs and cotton-ball 'beard' are dead giveaways!
All Best
Russ Bates
'writerfella'
Schulz, not Schmidt? Is someone confusing "Peace Party" with "Peanuts" ?
ReplyDeleteFirst you chide me for being bald like Patrick Stewart, Russ, and now you think I'm wearing a white toupee? Stupid.
ReplyDeleteYou're nothing if not inconsistent. I'll grant you that.
Three of your four comments were unrelated to the topic of "How many Indians died?" As usual, you've cluttered my blog with nonsense.