I asked Andrews a key question based on Wikipedia:
Folklore is the body of expressive culture, including tales, music, dance, legends, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, customs, and so forth within a particular population comprising the traditions (including oral traditions) of that culture, subculture, or group.
Actually, there's no such thing as the (singular) folklore of the American Indian. Rather, the 560-plus American Indian tribes have hundreds of different folklores.
I'm pretty sure no one tribe has all the Tribe of Mic-O-Say's stereotypical concepts: chief, sachem, shaman, medicine man, wampum, tom-tom, warrior, brave, etc. In particular, tribes have a chief or a sachem and a shaman or a medicine man, not both.
But if a tribe did have all these concepts, they'd still be stereotypical. Why? Because tribes also have people who aren't chiefs or sachems, shamans or medicine men, and warriors or braves. Depicting Indian tribes as if they consist solely of these roles is stereotypical.
The Tribe of Mic-O-Say isn't based on the genuine (folk)lore of any one tribe. It's based on a mishmash of (folk)lore from many tribes. In other words, it's based on the white man's stereotypical garbling of Indian folklore. Which has been my point all along.
More idiocy from Andrews
Andrews continues:
But I love what you're implying. Your phony tribe is all about "friendship and leadership." Real Indian tribes are all about gambling and casinos. Therefore, your phony tribe is upholding the values of real Indians--values they themselves have lost.
Thanks for demonstrating how stupid stereotypes warp your view of actual Indians. I'm guessing you don't know jack about the complex reality of Native life today. All you know is what you see in front of you: that Indians are chiefs, shamans, and warriors of the distant past. That they're people who wear costumes, beat drums, and say "How" to each other.
Another Wikipedia quote from Andrews:
Still more idiocy
I'm not trying to "undermine youth." Nor have I made fun of them. I've made fun of the mishmash of stereotypes used by the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. I presume adults who can take criticism are responsible for these stereotypes, not innocent youngsters.
As I think I said, I'm all for programs that strengthen youthful qualities of friendship and leadership. But I claim the phony Indian stereotypes aren't what produce this friendship and leadership. The program doesn't need them to work and would be better off without them.
The evidence proves this categorically. Thousands of youth programs, including Scouting's own Eagle Scouts, succeed without using Native stereotypes. Therefore, the stereotypes are unnecessary.
If you don't agree, have your lawyers call mine. I'll countersue the first person who sues me for harassment and intentional infliction of emotional distress. If you want to pay for my retirement, go ahead...make my day.
Andrews gets teary-eyed
Again, try to think a little. Criticizing the program's stupid stereotypes is completely different from criticizing the program's success at building youth. If you can't understand and address the first point, don't bother writing about the second. Because the second point is irrelevant to my argument.
"McIndian" Night
Pin features Ronald McDonald as a chief in a headdress
McDonald's says Native children don't need scholarships
So far McDonald's people haven't sued me. If they do, I'll kick their butts just like I'm kicking yours.
So much for your ignorant opinion that I'm picking on the little boys of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say because I'm afraid of real men like Ronald McDonald. Guess again, doofus.
More to the point, what's the basis for your grammatically challenged claim? I'm pretty sure you haven't read the comics and don't know what they're about.
As for making fun of your revered chiefs, would I do that? I don't think it's necessary because your chiefs are self-created parodies of Indians. But I'll let readers be the judge:
Oops. If it isn't clear, these images are Ronald McDonald and a Tribe of Mic-O-Say chief. Not two Tribe of Mic-O-Say chiefs. I trust you can tell the difference.
If anyone isn't convinced that dressing up as Indians is a problem, try dressing up as Zulu warriors from the 19th century. Rub shoe polish on your faces, don loincloths, and brandish spears. Let us know how it goes.
Does anyone think a Scouting society of Zulu warriors would pass muster? Then why are the Scouts pretending to be old-fashioned Indians? The two scenarios are equally stereotypical. Targeting Indians when you're not willing to target other races is arguably racist.
Some anonymous final thoughts
Don't waste my time raising either of these points again. Repeating questions that I've already answered is a good way to get your comments deleted.
Since the 1960s and 1970s, that's changed. Hence, the frequent Native protests against the Y-Indian Guides, Indian mascots, and other examples of stereotyping.
For more on the subject, see Indian Wannabes and The Harm of Native Stereotyping: Facts and Evidence.
Below: Another tribe of warriors and chiefs for the Boy Scouts to emulate?
What community/state does the Mic-O-Say operate out of?
ReplyDeleteKalisetsi--It's in Kansas City and St. Joseph. Both are in MO.
ReplyDeleteI was the last (besides the blogger) to post on the "Scout society stereo types indians" entry from July 26, 2008.
And Rob, your post doesn't address my point and it is slanderous. I intentionally never said that this program doesn't stereotype indians. It does. I was making another point.
The thing is that the stereotypes don't decrease the inherent worth of such a program. My claim that the program is good. It seeks to teach a set of values that is not exclusive to native americans. And, the program never claims that.
There are young, albeit passionate, scouts that have not developed their debate/discussion skills enough to combat your angry comebacks and slanderous posts, Rob. I won't attempt to speak further about this, but I'd say, lighten up your verbiage. It's inappropriate to imply that their arguments are pathetic. You can criticize the program's stereotypes without calling them "stupid." It seems like several of the commenters are just kids. Ignorant, maybe. But they haven't had the experience to make good arguments.
My question was why does this blogger, from California, care about this program? Are you on a crusade to end the stereotyping of Native Americans? That's probably okay. But, you're a guy that's not familiar with the program and its intended goal. It's goal is not to solely stereotype indians. It's not dress up time. The goal is to teach a set of principles.
Yes. You're right. Micosay does this in the context of Native "lore." You're right that it picks and chooses from the traditions of several tribes across the country. Is that right? Probably not if you want to adhere to a completely politically correct notion.
Your next argument: well it's not right (you'd probably use "stupid" instead) to stereotype people and parade around acting like you know what their culture is about. You're probably right. But, I would say that even the kids that go through do not think that the program is teaching them about specific cultures. They're not that ignorant.
This can easily turn into a cyclic argument. Stereotypes: pretty much wrong. The programs' principles: pretty much good. Can you change the program while keeping the same principles but removing the stereotypes? Tell me how to do it, constructively and without calling the current program stupid, and I will listen.
You never did address that the program was developed in conjunction with Native Americans. Some (non-scouts, invited to watch) have seen it since and have approved. Does that mean all will agree? No. These individuals saw the core of the program and approved. I, like you, am uncomfortable with some of the stereotypes. But, I disagree with the way that you criticize it.
The short answer is that there wasn't any slander and I addressed your points, Anonymous. For a more detailed answer, see Mic-O-Say Defender Admits Stereotypes.
ReplyDeleteI think if you went through the Tribe you would understand that its not so much about being Native American Indians or mimicking their way of life to bring boys to men...its about creating an atmosphere in which the boys can forget about the city life and be more in touch with nature so that they can start thinking about others instead of themselves. its about challenging yourself and coming out a better person in the end. Its about creating brotherhood among strangers and in these goals it succeeds. Like I said if you went through the Tribe when you were 14 or 15 you would understand. So please stop slandering something that all your education cannot tell you about: warmth and friendship.
ReplyDeleteI am from the Kansas City area and have seen both groups of Mic-O-Say (not a member, but as a Scoutmaster, have seen plenty of info on their programs... long story.)... and am a member of the nationally recognized "Order of the Arrow" ("OA" for short). I have been active in Boy Scouts for over twenty years, all as an adult. I have been active in for about 10 years.
ReplyDeleteAll 3 can be attacked for their inappropriate use of Indian/Native American "folklore", icons, etc., to some degree... I have also been around enough people of varying backgrounds from the Native American community and the organizations to see what is going on.
IF you take a strict look at them, that criticism is, generally, accurate. But, Rob, your tone and approach is NOT HELPING A BIT. If you were truly trying to change things, you could have done a much better job of researching and responding to these youths and adults, even from California.
WHAT LIMITS SHOULD BOY SCOUTS AND THEIR "HONOR SOCIETIES" USE?
There are any number of things that could be done that would RESPECTFULLY maintain the connections with specific Native American tribes and the general Native American population.
The mock personal and position names is a glaring example. The use of costuming is another. If you are going to refer to a story behind the organization, make sure that the story is accurately tranmitted, and attributed to the correct tribe/culture/source.
Let me give a simple test, that Rob touched on with his reference to the Zulu, but that is more 'culturally relevant'.
Imagine that someone was building an organization based on our society... What would WE find offensive?
Would we be offended if a story was created and attributed to our culture as a whole that only was loosely based on, say, the "Koran"? Or a book specific to the Catholic "Old Testament", but not the Protestant version(s)?
Would we be offended if a portion of our worship service was taken out of context and used as a part of a secular celebration? Take Cummunion as an example of what might be 'borrowed' as a ceremony to celebrate the community of all people. Or a Bar Mitzvah as a secular 'rite of passage' into the organization/group.
I am not intending to be offensive. But I am using examples that I have heard compared to what and how the Boy Scout societies have appropriated from 'pieces' of the various tribes/cultures of Native Americans.
Rob, you mention changes that the Y-Indian Guides made as positive. What were those changes. I am not familiar with them.
SEPARATE THE MEANS FROM THE ENDS
Anyone wanting to change any of these programs will have to look at WHAT the goal is. The use of mock Native American names, stories, etc., is useful because it draws in a group of boys that would otherwise lose interest in these positive programs.
Are there other ways than the mock Native American 'ploys' to maintain the boys' interests? I think I can safely say, "YES".
Have Boy Scouts attempted to find them? To some extent, but not very effectively. It is easier to fight change in an organization that is conservative by its nature, than to seek it.
Sincerely,
Jim in KC
credited excerpts of this article were published in St Joseph Free Press in St Joseph, Mo (home of Mic-O-Say's Camp Geiger and Pony Express Council)
ReplyDeleteHey Rob, after some creative googling I finally managed to find the site of the St. Joseph Free Press mentioned above.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that their reprinting of your blog entry has been added to. I'm just curious if the additions are actually written by you since they appear under your byline without any additional citation even though the bulk of the article is a verbatim reprinting of this blog entry.
Just post the answer here, I'm following the discussion.