In
Educating Scouts About Stereotypes, an anonymous reader took me to task again for criticizing the Tribe of Mic-O-Say and its mishmash of stereotypes:
Rob, your post doesn't address my point and it is slanderous.Which point? What "slander"? These claims are worthless without more details. Quote the point you think I missed and the slander you think I uttered if you can.
I intentionally never said that this program doesn't stereotype indians. It does.Bingo. Stop right there. You finally admit the point that I've been making all along. The point that almost everyone in these debates has previously denied. Congratulations for finally getting it.
I was making another point.Were you? Well, I addressed what I thought was your point when I wrote:
Again, try to
think a little. Criticizing the program's stupid stereotypes is completely different from criticizing the program's success at building youth. If you can't understand and address the first point, don't bother writing about the second. Because the second point is irrelevant to my argument.
The thing is that the stereotypes don't decrease the inherent worth of such a program.The inherent worth of such a program doesn't decrease its stereotyping.
And its worth to whom? To the kids who participate in it? Or to Indian country, which has suffered the
harm of 500 years of stereotyping?
You seem to think you operate in a vacuum, but you don't. Your Tribe of Mic-O-Say spreads its message to relatives, schoolmates, neighbors, teachers--basically, anyone who learns about the Tribe of Mic-O-Say from its participants. The message is that it's okay to dress up as and stereotype Indians.
Give youngsters a break?There are young, albeit passionate, scouts that have not developed their debate/discussion skills enough to combat your angry comebacks and slanderous posts, Rob.There weren't any "slanderous posts," friend. You must not know the definition of slander if you're making such a ridiculous charge.
FYI, I don't know the ages of anyone who comments on my blog. Unless they identify themselves and their ages, they're irrelevant to me. I'm not about to start mollycoddling those who stereotype Indians because they
may be children.
Apparently you haven't taught your Scouts a simple maxim: If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I suggest you make that the next Mic-O-Say lesson. Warn the kiddies about the "dangers" of posting on adult blogs and websites.
I won't attempt to speak further about this, but I'd say, lighten up your verbiage.No. You lighten up your defense of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say and your criticism of my verbiage.
If only everyone who promised not to discuss something further actually did it. It would make my life easier. <g>
It's inappropriate to imply that their arguments are pathetic. You can criticize the program's stereotypes without calling them "stupid."What word would
you use to describe the stereotypes? If you don't like "stupid," pick an adjective. Let's see if your choice of words is better than mine.
My inflammatory language served its purpose. Finally, after a few dozen comments, one of you Mic-O-Say defenders has admitted I was right. If you had done that from the start, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And I wouldn't have had to use the inflammatory language to goad you into responding.
It seems like several of the commenters are just kids. Ignorant, maybe. But they haven't had the experience to make good arguments.Again, not my concern.
Why criticize stereotypes?My question was why does this blogger, from California, care about this program? Are you on a crusade to end the stereotyping of Native Americans?I
directed you to the pages on my site that answered your question. If you didn't read them, that's your problem, not mine.
Anyway, your guess is close enough. And what does that tell you? That I was right to criticize the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, presumably.
But, you're a guy that's not familiar with the program and its intended goal.I hate to repeat myself, but if you insist:
Again, try to
think a little. Criticizing the program's stupid stereotypes is completely different from criticizing the program's success at building youth. If you can't understand and address the first point, don't bother writing about the second. Because the second point is irrelevant to my argument.
It's goal is not to solely stereotype indians. It's not dress up time. The goal is to teach a set of principles.If it's not
solely to stereotype Indians, are you admitting it's
partially to stereotype Indians?
Is one of the principles you teach the notion that stereotyping people is okay? Because that's what you're implicitly teaching kids regardless of your explicit goals.
Anyway, I never said the Tribe of Mic-O-Say's goal was to stereotype Indians. I said it stereotypes Indians regardless of its goals. I don't know why you're having such a hard time understanding this. Again, try to distinguish the two points.
Yes. You're right. Micosay does this in the context of Native "lore." You're right that it picks and chooses from the traditions of several tribes across the country.Again, bingo. Again, you admit I'm right. Why are we even having this debate when I've won it already?
Rob = PC?Is that right? Probably not if you want to adhere to a completely politically correct notion.And probably not if you believe in challenging racist and stereotypical depictions wherever they appear--a completely different matter.
If you're claiming that challenging racism and stereotyping means being "PC," you're wrong. People like me aren't advocating political correctness, we're advocating historical correctness. We're advocating correctness, period. Your stupid fault if you don't understand the difference.
Your next argument: well it's not right (you'd probably use "stupid" instead) to stereotype people and parade around acting like you know what their culture is about. You're probably right.Bingo! Three bingos in a row! I'm the big winner today!
But, I would say that even the kids that go through do not think that the program is teaching them about specific cultures. They're not that ignorant.Aren't they? I don't see any of the commenters--the ones you said are kids--admitting the stereotypes except you.
Have you ever tested the Native knowledge of your Mic-O-Say Scouts? Asked them if they recognize the stereotypes in your program, perhaps? Until you do, don't bother guessing what they do or don't know. I don't buy it.
This can easily turn into a cyclic argument. Stereotypes: pretty much wrong. The programs' principles: pretty much good.Yep. And since the first point was my only point, I'm right. I haven't said the programs' goals were bad, so telling us they're good is a waste of time. Again, it's irrelevant.
Can you change the program while keeping the same principles but removing the stereotypes? Tell me how to do it, constructively and without calling the current program stupid, and I will listen.Follow the approach of the
Y-Indian Guides, which have successfully removed the Indian trappings from many of their programs. Call up their HQ and ask them for guidance.
If you're unwilling or unable to do this much, bring in a Native to educate the Scouts about Indians. Make sure it's an activist who'll teach them about today's Indians, not a historian who'll teach them about yesterday's. If you're sincere about enlightening them, find someone outspoken who will challenge the Tribe of Mic-O-Say's stereotypes.
That's about all I can suggest. I'm not in the business of providing comprehensive advice to organizations that stereotype Indians. If you want to hire me as a consultant, I'll consider it.
Natives support stereotypes?You never did address that the program was developed in conjunction with Native Americans. Some (non-scouts, invited to watch) have seen it since and have approved.Actually, yes, I did. My answer is in the
previous posting. Once again, I'll repeat myself:
Back in the early years of the 20th century, Indians were much closer to the brink of extinction. Therefore, they were much more willing to accommodate the white man's fantasies about Indians. We see this over and over in the creation of Indian mascots.
Since the 1960s and 1970s, that's changed. Hence, the frequent Native protests against the Y-Indian Guides,
Indian mascots, and other examples of stereotyping.
Do you mean you want me to address it
further? Okay. As you've agreed, you have a mishmash of stereotypes from different tribes. Did you get Natives from all those tribes and ask them about mixing their cultural lore with others'? Did you get older Natives who were more likely to keep their opinions to themselves or younger Natives who were more likely to speak their minds? Did you ask them if they approved the overall program, with its noble goals and principles, or specifically if they approved the mishmash of stereotypes?
When you can address these points, then we'll discuss how much Natives support the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. Until then, you haven't begun to seriously answer the question.
Finally, should I even bother pointing out the questions
you didn't answer? For instance, my point about dressing up as 19th-century Zulu warriors? Since you insisted I answer your questions, go ahead and answer mine. Explain why you're willing to dress up as 19th-century Indian warriors but not as 19th-century Zulu warriors.
P.S. If you're curious how this debate started, readers, go to
Scout Society Stereotypes Indians.
Below: The Tribe of Mic-O-Say teaches that it's okay to dress up as phony and stereotypical Plains chiefs.