By Carmen Van KerckhoveIn this segment on CNN, Tim Wise connects the dots between the anger over healthcare reform and what he calls “white racial resentment.” Some of the points he cites as evidence of the link:
The applause from white folks at a recent Missouri town hall meeting when a white man ripped up a black woman’s poster of Rosa Parks, and the black woman was then hauled out of the room.
The right-wing pundits’ increasingly overt attempts to stoke racial resentment among white people, e.g. Glenn Beck’s assertion that Obama’s healthcare reform proposal is a way to get reparations for black people, or Rush Limbaugh’s claim that Obama hates white people.
The comparisons between Obama and racial fascist Adolf Hitler. The implication seems to be that just as Hitler went after Jews (and other non-Aryans), Obama will persecute whites.
Research indicating that many white Americans perceive any kind of government spending for have-nots to be taking resources from supposedly hard-working white people and giving them to supposedly lazy black folks.
Comment: I couldn't get the video to embed, so go to the original posting to watch it. Tim Wise's comments begin at about the 1:30 mark.
I agree with everything he says and writes, and this is no exception. I'd love to see him rip apart Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan, Sarah Palin, and the other Republican ignoramuses and racists.
Indians are part of this debate too:
White House responds to attacks on IHS & reform talkOn Tuesday, Aug. 18, the White House responded to stories about IHS as a “government health plan gone wrong.” The story came from two sources, the governor of South Dakota and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.
Of course readers of this blog are reading a different story. --Mark Trahant
"I agree with everything he says and writes, and this is no exception."
Wise either a scammer or someone who thinks that his guilt (for atrocities that he didn't commit) will vanish once he finally finishes churning out terrible articles. Do you also agree with his bigoted statements such as:
"Indeed, what seems to bother white people more than anything, whether in the recent episode, or at any other time, is being confronted with the recognition that black people do not, by and large, see the world like we do; that black people, by and large, do not view America as white people view it."
Thanks Wise for telling us how every single black person or white person thinks of the US. Or do you share his opinion of Farrakhan?
Note the double standard, in Wise world a white racist is pure evil but a Black on is a-okay. But then again you're actually a racist also seeing as you called violence in America a 'white problem'.One last fun fact; Wise also told people to vote for Cynthia McKinney the same Cynthia McKinney who came up with a bill to release the government's secret records on Tupac Shakur, assaulted police and said that the government secretely executed 5,000 men and dumped them in a swamp. Sure she's crazy, but she's also Black and that's enough for Wise.
The opposition to the health care reform, at its heart, has nothing to do with race. However, it is so broad-based that it is easy to find people putting racist/racial spin on it and saying some pretty outrageous things. Plenty enough to fill Wise's list.
Oh yeah and here's Tim Wise defending Jonathan Farley (the idiot who claimed that US racism was all the fault of the south and that the US shold have committed an appalling war crime).
"They're his (feelings), and they express his emotions, and they're true," said Wise. "We can't imagine what it's like to be the descendant of somebody's footstool, to be the descendant of somebody's chattel. That's what they (slaves) experienced."
A. Farley is actually the child of West Indian immigrants, he's not descended from slaves.
B. How the hell does being descended from a slave make somebody a victim? Oh that's right it doesn't.
Re "Do you also agree with his bigoted statements": Yes, I do--especially since they aren't bigoted.
For starters, Wise usually backs up his claims with facts and evidence. In this video, he referred to 40 years of studies showing that Americans link government programs to "handouts" for minorities. If you're ignorant of this research, that's your problem, not his.
In other words, it's not "bigotry" to make a fact-based claim. Your mistake if you don't understand that bigotry is based on irrational beliefs, not rational judgments.
More to the point, his statement was a generalization, bright boy. It's generally true, not universally true. When Wise wants to indict "every single" black or white person, I'm sure he'll use the phrase "every single" in his work. Until he does, you've made up a phrase that isn't in the original.
In other words, you've basically lied about Wise's position. Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is Stephen.
Maybe you're just lazy or sick in the head rather than dishonest, but no matter. Next time you waste my time with your stupid misunderstanding of generalizations, I'm going to delete your comments. You'll be free to repost the comments without the stupid misunderstanding of generalizations.
In short, I'm tired of your inserting words such as "every" or "all" to falsify people's statements--as you've done with me and Wise. I'm not wasting any more time correcting you when you lie about what people have said. I.e., I'm not wasting any more time educating you about generalizations.
As for Wise's essay on Farrakhan, yes, I generally share his opinion. For instance, I agree with this:
"And speaking of history, for white Americans to condemn Farrakhan, while still admiring some of the people for whom we have affection--who have not only said but done far more evil things than he--is evidence of how compromised is the principle we now seek to impose on others. It is evidence of our duplicity on this subject, our utter venality as arbiters of moral indignation. It isn't that what Farrakhan has said about Jews, or gay and lesbian folks is acceptable--it isn't. But the fact that his words make him a pariah, while white folks actions don't do the same for us, is astounding."
In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan--unlike you. But the essay is long, as Wise's essays are wont to be. Is there any particular statement you want me to react to?
As for Farley, I don't know anything about him. Unless his parents were immigrants from Africa, his ancestors probably included West Indian slaves. Or are you under the delusion that slavery in the Americas was limited to the United States?
Re "The opposition to the health care reform, at its heart, has nothing to do with race": Wise addressed that point when he noted the 40 years of research associating government programs with giveaways to minorities in people's minds. Do you have any response to this research, DMarks? Because ignoring it as if doesn't exist isn't much of an argument.
Rob said: "It isn't that what Farrakhan has said about Jews, or gay and lesbian folks is acceptable--it isn't. But the fact that his words make him a pariah, while white folks actions don't do the same for us, is astounding."
David Duke is like the Farrakhan of the white race. Yet, he's quite the pariah. Probably more so than Farrakhan, even among whites.
"In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan"
Unless he changed recently, Farrakhan is not a Muslim. The "Nation of Islam" is actually rather divergent from actual Islam, as David Koresh's infamous cult was rather divergent from Christianity. Definitely to the point that Stephen's generalizations of Muslims do not apply.
You are right that Farley is likely descended from black slaves in the West Indies.
As for the last comment, remember that there are many more whites who are welfare recipients than there are minorities. So that deflates the argument that opposition to welfare = racism.
Also, opposition to the healthcare plan due to it being a "government giveaway" is pretty much off the radar. There are several other different issues which make up the debate over the current plan. Only one of these several issues (the idea of illegal aliens getting free healthcare) is related to this "giveaway" issue, and that is the only one of the several issues that can be intepreted as being racial at all.
"For starters, Wise usually backs up his claims with facts and evidence. In this video, he referred to 40 years of studies showing that Americans link government programs to "handouts" for minorities. If you're ignorant of this research, that's your problem, not his."
Did he provide details of these or tell people where they could read them for themselves?
"In other words, it's not "bigotry" to make a fact-based claim. Your mistake if you don't understand that bigotry is based on irrational beliefs, not rational judgments."
What's rational about saying that whites and blacks and general have a completely different way of seeing the US?
"More to the point, his statement was a generalization, bright boy. It's generally true, not universally true. When Wise wants to indict "every single" black or white person, I'm sure he'll use the phrase "every single" in his work."
I'm afraid it isn't true at all, I've seen no shortage of whites at anti-American demonstrations and I've seen no evidence no evidence to support the idea that whites in general are a bunch of naive flag waving yahoos. If I said half the things that Wise has said Whites I'd be called a racist.
"In other words, you've basically lied about Wise's position. Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is Stephen."
It wasn't a lie it was sarcasm; do you understand the concept of sarcasm?
"Maybe you're just lazy or sick in the head rather than dishonest, but no matter. Next time you waste my time with your stupid misunderstanding of generalizations"
I understood they were generalizations, I was pointing they weren't factual.
"In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan--unlike you."
How am I bigoted against muslims? I have never said anything negative about muslims just the religion, you on other hand have made a racist statement (calling violence in the US a white problem). And you're probably just irrirated because you lost every single arugment about islam with me. You don't actually know very much about islam as evidenced by how you think farrakhan's a muslim which he isn't; last time I checked the quran didn't mention whites being created by a guy named Yakub.
"Or are you under the delusion that slavery in the Americas was limited to the United States?"
Of course not I admit I was wrong about that.
"Definitely to the point that Stephen's generalizations of Muslims do not apply."
Also if criticizing islam (Rob was dumb enough to think that CAIR is a reliable source of info) and obama is bigotry then by absurd 'logic' you're anti-semite for criticizing Israel. See how silly that argument is?
Getting back to Farley I admit I made a mistake about that (I assumed that Wise was claiming that Farley was descended was confederate slaves) however I still don't see how being the descendent of slave makes him a victim. Genocide, slavery and other atrocities need to be remembered and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having emotional feelings about things 'your people' went through. However as if you experienced those things is just plain stupid; some people just want to feel 'oppressed' for some reason. It reminds me of that kid in that one entry on here who whined about the 'mick' slur sure it's stupid and bigoted but it's still just a word; it's not as if he's living in Derry having to deal with sectarianism, it's not like he's ever been beaten for being a 'taig' and it's not as if he had any of his loved ones massacred by the UVF and security forces like Eugene Reavey, just like how Farley never actually experienced slavery.
"The "implication" and its specific racial conclusions come from imagination. The facts, however, show that over-the-top, not-called-for Hitler comparisons are too popular among crude angry protesters. During the Bush years, Bush = Hitler comparisons were very common for the same reason that Obama = Hitler comparisons are now. The reason in both situations is none other than that the protesters hate Bush, or hate Obama, and to equate a person to Hitler is the worst insult they can think of."
Yeah it's really gotten out of hand; if someone hates a government it's automatically godwin's law time.
"I do not buy this separation between hating a religion, and hating those who embrace it. After all, the religion really does not exist without those who embrace it, does it?"
Except that so many have not chosen to embrace it they're muslims because the alternative is dhimmitude, possibly being disowned by friends and family and targetted by a gang. In other words they're muslims for the purpose of survival.
"Hating Islam while not hating Muslims makes as much sense as the "love the sinner, hate the sin" used by anti-gay activists."
See above.
"You are right that it is bad to use CAIR, a terrorist fundraising front, as a source of information. And you are quite right to point out some of the specific non-Muslim ideology of the group that calls itself "The Nation of Islam."
Thanks.
"Malcolm X, late in his life, rejected this ideology. In his own autobiography, he mocks the Yakub tale. For this and other reasons, the leadership of what was called "The Nation of Islam" in his day ordered him assassinated."
Sadly he embraced a religion that sold millions of his people into slavery; Islam encourages slavery seeing as muslims are commanded to emulate mohammed who was a slave owner and trader and there are verses with instructions on slave owning.
"Spear them at once! For, if we did not, others would pretend they are ill in order to avoid carrying their loads. No! We never leave them alive on the road; they all know this custom."
"When asked who carries the ivory when a mother gets too tired to carry both her baby and the ivory, the herdsman replied, "She does! We cannot leave valuable ivory on the road. We spear the child and make her burden lighter." -Dr. John Alembellah Azumah
"It became a custom for pilgrims to take slaves for sale in Mecca or buy one or two slaves while on Haj as souvenirs to be kept, sold or given as gifts."
16 comments:
"I agree with everything he says and writes, and this is no exception."
Wise either a scammer or someone who thinks that his guilt (for atrocities that he didn't commit) will vanish once he finally finishes churning out terrible articles. Do you also agree with his bigoted statements such as:
"Indeed, what seems to bother white people more than anything, whether in the recent episode, or at any other time, is being confronted with the recognition that black people do not, by and large, see the world like we do; that black people, by and large, do not view America as white people view it."
Thanks Wise for telling us how every single black person or white person thinks of the US. Or do you share his opinion of Farrakhan?
http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/Farrakhan.html
Note the double standard, in Wise world a white racist is pure evil but a Black on is a-okay. But then again you're actually a racist also seeing as you called violence in America a 'white problem'.One last fun fact; Wise also told people to vote for Cynthia McKinney the same Cynthia McKinney who came up with a bill to release the government's secret records on Tupac Shakur, assaulted police and said that the government secretely executed 5,000 men and dumped them in a swamp. Sure she's crazy, but she's also Black and that's enough for Wise.
The opposition to the health care reform, at its heart, has nothing to do with race. However, it is so broad-based that it is easy to find people putting racist/racial spin on it and saying some pretty outrageous things. Plenty enough to fill Wise's list.
Oh yeah and here's Tim Wise defending Jonathan Farley (the idiot who claimed that US racism was all the fault of the south and that the US shold have committed an appalling war crime).
"They're his (feelings), and they express his emotions, and they're true," said Wise. "We can't imagine what it's like to be the descendant of somebody's footstool, to be the descendant of somebody's chattel. That's what they (slaves) experienced."
A. Farley is actually the child of West Indian immigrants, he's not descended from slaves.
B. How the hell does being descended from a slave make somebody a victim? Oh that's right it doesn't.
Re "Do you also agree with his bigoted statements": Yes, I do--especially since they aren't bigoted.
For starters, Wise usually backs up his claims with facts and evidence. In this video, he referred to 40 years of studies showing that Americans link government programs to "handouts" for minorities. If you're ignorant of this research, that's your problem, not his.
In other words, it's not "bigotry" to make a fact-based claim. Your mistake if you don't understand that bigotry is based on irrational beliefs, not rational judgments.
More to the point, his statement was a generalization, bright boy. It's generally true, not universally true. When Wise wants to indict "every single" black or white person, I'm sure he'll use the phrase "every single" in his work. Until he does, you've made up a phrase that isn't in the original.
In other words, you've basically lied about Wise's position. Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is Stephen.
Maybe you're just lazy or sick in the head rather than dishonest, but no matter. Next time you waste my time with your stupid misunderstanding of generalizations, I'm going to delete your comments. You'll be free to repost the comments without the stupid misunderstanding of generalizations.
In short, I'm tired of your inserting words such as "every" or "all" to falsify people's statements--as you've done with me and Wise. I'm not wasting any more time correcting you when you lie about what people have said. I.e., I'm not wasting any more time educating you about generalizations.
As for Wise's essay on Farrakhan, yes, I generally share his opinion. For instance, I agree with this:
"And speaking of history, for white Americans to condemn Farrakhan, while still admiring some of the people for whom we have affection--who have not only said but done far more evil things than he--is evidence of how compromised is the principle we now seek to impose on others. It is evidence of our duplicity on this subject, our utter venality as arbiters of moral indignation. It isn't that what Farrakhan has said about Jews, or gay and lesbian folks is acceptable--it isn't. But the fact that his words make him a pariah, while white folks actions don't do the same for us, is astounding."
In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan--unlike you. But the essay is long, as Wise's essays are wont to be. Is there any particular statement you want me to react to?
As for Farley, I don't know anything about him. Unless his parents were immigrants from Africa, his ancestors probably included West Indian slaves. Or are you under the delusion that slavery in the Americas was limited to the United States?
Re "The opposition to the health care reform, at its heart, has nothing to do with race": Wise addressed that point when he noted the 40 years of research associating government programs with giveaways to minorities in people's minds. Do you have any response to this research, DMarks? Because ignoring it as if doesn't exist isn't much of an argument.
Rob said: "It isn't that what Farrakhan has said about Jews, or gay and lesbian folks is acceptable--it isn't. But the fact that his words make him a pariah, while white folks actions don't do the same for us, is astounding."
David Duke is like the Farrakhan of the white race. Yet, he's quite the pariah. Probably more so than Farrakhan, even among whites.
"In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan"
Unless he changed recently, Farrakhan is not a Muslim. The "Nation of Islam" is actually rather divergent from actual Islam, as David Koresh's infamous cult was rather divergent from Christianity. Definitely to the point that Stephen's generalizations of Muslims do not apply.
You are right that Farley is likely descended from black slaves in the West Indies.
As for the last comment, remember that there are many more whites who are welfare recipients than there are minorities. So that deflates the argument that opposition to welfare = racism.
Also, opposition to the healthcare plan due to it being a "government giveaway" is pretty much off the radar. There are several other different issues which make up the debate over the current plan. Only one of these several issues (the idea of illegal aliens getting free healthcare) is related to this "giveaway" issue, and that is the only one of the several issues that can be intepreted as being racial at all.
"For starters, Wise usually backs up his claims with facts and evidence. In this video, he referred to 40 years of studies showing that Americans link government programs to "handouts" for minorities. If you're ignorant of this research, that's your problem, not his."
Did he provide details of these or tell people where they could read them for themselves?
"In other words, it's not "bigotry" to make a fact-based claim. Your mistake if you don't understand that bigotry is based on irrational beliefs, not rational judgments."
What's rational about saying that whites and blacks and general have a completely different way of seeing the US?
"More to the point, his statement was a generalization, bright boy. It's generally true, not universally true. When Wise wants to indict "every single" black or white person, I'm sure he'll use the phrase "every single" in his work."
I'm afraid it isn't true at all, I've seen no shortage of whites at anti-American demonstrations and I've seen no evidence no evidence to support the idea that whites in general are a bunch of naive flag waving yahoos. If I said half the things that Wise has said Whites I'd be called a racist.
"In other words, you've basically lied about Wise's position. Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is Stephen."
It wasn't a lie it was sarcasm; do you understand the concept of sarcasm?
"Maybe you're just lazy or sick in the head rather than dishonest, but no matter. Next time you waste my time with your stupid misunderstanding of generalizations"
I understood they were generalizations, I was pointing they weren't factual.
"In other words, I'm not bigoted against Muslims such as Farrakhan--unlike you."
How am I bigoted against muslims? I have never said anything negative about muslims just the religion, you on other hand have made a racist statement (calling violence in the US a white problem). And you're probably just irrirated because you lost every single arugment about islam with me. You don't actually know very much about islam as evidenced by how you think farrakhan's a muslim which he isn't; last time I checked the quran didn't mention whites being created by a guy named Yakub.
"Or are you under the delusion that slavery in the Americas was limited to the United States?"
Of course not I admit I was wrong about that.
"Definitely to the point that Stephen's generalizations of Muslims do not apply."
I haven't generalized muslims.
Also if criticizing islam (Rob was dumb enough to think that CAIR is a reliable source of info) and obama is bigotry then by absurd 'logic' you're anti-semite for criticizing Israel. See how silly that argument is?
Getting back to Farley I admit I made a mistake about that (I assumed that Wise was claiming that Farley was descended was confederate slaves) however I still don't see how being the descendent of slave makes him a victim. Genocide, slavery and other atrocities need to be remembered and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having emotional feelings about things 'your people' went through. However as if you experienced those things is just plain stupid; some people just want to feel 'oppressed' for some reason. It reminds me of that kid in that one entry on here who whined about the 'mick' slur sure it's stupid and bigoted but it's still just a word; it's not as if he's living in Derry having to deal with sectarianism, it's not like he's ever been beaten for being a 'taig' and it's not as if he had any of his loved ones massacred by the UVF and security forces like Eugene Reavey, just like how Farley never actually experienced slavery.
"The "implication" and its specific racial conclusions come from imagination. The facts, however, show that over-the-top, not-called-for Hitler comparisons are too popular among crude angry protesters. During the Bush years, Bush = Hitler comparisons were very common for the same reason that Obama = Hitler comparisons are now. The reason in both situations is none other than that the protesters hate Bush, or hate Obama, and to equate a person to Hitler is the worst insult they can think of."
Yeah it's really gotten out of hand; if someone hates a government it's automatically godwin's law time.
"I do not buy this separation between hating a religion, and hating those who embrace it. After all, the religion really does not exist without those who embrace it, does it?"
Except that so many have not chosen to embrace it they're muslims because the alternative is dhimmitude, possibly being disowned by friends and family and targetted by a gang. In other words they're muslims for the purpose of survival.
"Hating Islam while not hating Muslims makes as much sense as the "love the sinner, hate the sin" used by anti-gay activists."
See above.
"You are right that it is bad to use CAIR, a terrorist fundraising front, as a source of information. And you are quite right to point out some of the specific non-Muslim ideology of the group that calls itself "The Nation of Islam."
Thanks.
"Malcolm X, late in his life, rejected this ideology. In his own autobiography, he mocks the Yakub tale. For this and other reasons, the leadership of what was called "The Nation of Islam" in his day ordered him assassinated."
Sadly he embraced a religion that sold millions of his people into slavery; Islam encourages slavery seeing as muslims are commanded to emulate mohammed who was a slave owner and trader and there are verses with instructions on slave owning.
"Spear them at once! For, if we did not, others would pretend they are ill in order to avoid carrying their loads. No! We never leave them alive on the road; they all know this custom."
"When asked who carries the ivory when a mother gets too tired to carry both her baby and the ivory, the herdsman replied, "She does! We cannot leave valuable ivory on the road. We spear the child and make her burden lighter."
-Dr. John Alembellah Azumah
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1851682732?tag=thereligionof-20&cam
p=14573&creative=327641&li
nkCode=as1&creativeASIN=18516
82732&adid=1QDP25RCF9HA0ZYQDB
59&
Azumah also notes:
"It became a custom for pilgrims to take slaves for sale in Mecca or buy one or two slaves while on Haj as souvenirs to be kept, sold or given as gifts."
This continued until the 1960s.
Also in case you aren't with what happens to dhimmis check this out:
http://www.dhimmi.com/victimsgallery.htm
And there's also the matter of these verses:
"The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"
-Bukhari (52:260)
"[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
-Bukhari (84:57)
I just realized who Barry reminds me of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95QE47NZtUw
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