January 30, 2008

The Indian-Turk connection

Are American Indians Turkish?For many years, there were occasional stories related to the commonalities between Turks and Native Americans in the Turkish media. For example language similarities were always portrayed as the strongest link between the two groups' association. It is widely known in Turkey that French linguist Dumesnil found more than 300 Turkish words in native Indian languages: Türe and Töre (Tradition), Yanunda and Yanında (Near), Atış and Ateş (Fire) to name a few.

For some groups, the commonalities of Native Indian languages and Turkish are normal because some regard all human languages as descendants of one Central Asian primal language. One group supporting the Sun Language Theory are the ultranationalists. The theory further proposes that the only language remaining more or less the same as this primal language is Turkish. For others, the connection between Native Americans and Turks is far-fetched and they argue that these kinds of stories are stretching the imagination.
Plus a curious piece of (mis)information:Ç?nar also mentioned the main purpose of the conference was to strengthen relations between Turkish Americans and Native Americans. "In the U.S. Senate there are 15 Native American senators. Therefore I see this conference also as an important element in strengthening the Turkish lobby and increasing its supporters in the U.S. Senate."Comment:  Fifteen Indians in the Senate? Not according to the Wikipedia entry on Rep. Tom Cole (R-Okla.). "As of 2007, Cole—a member of the Chickasaw Nation—is the only registered Native American in Congress."

The language connection might be impressive if the Turkish words matched the words in a single Native language. But since there are hundreds of Native languages, it probably isn't hard to find a match between a Turkish word and some Native word.

For a similar claim, see Kokopelli a Hindu God?


russell said...

Writerfella here --
IF Oklahoma Senator Tom Cole is Native American, then writerfella MUST be a Martian! There is no way that Dr. Tom Cole is anything else than Caucasian, no matter what race he decides to claim. If Tom Cole stood beside Kiowan chieftain Kicking Bird, the first thing that would happen is that KickingBird would scalp 'the white man!' Ipso facto! Um, er, uh, Rob, isn't your own hair somewhat THIN?
All Best
Russ Bates

russell said...

Writerfella here --
POSTSCRIPTUM -- For decades, the Kiowans were regarded by American scientists as a separate tribal existence from the rest of the Native tribes. Why? Because their language and symboli matched no other Native tribe. Their language, therefore, was given its own separate existence category as 'Tanoan.' Then, in the 1980s, correlations were found between Kiowan and Mayan language that meant that the two tribes possessed the same origins, plus the fact that the Kiowans worshipped pyramids constructed of mud and kept their family histories written in like symbols on animal hides. Kiowans, scientists now believe, are Mayans. Both tribes ate turkeys, but does such a fact make them TURKISH? Just asking...
All Best
Ruiss Bates

dmarks said...

from Native American Chiefs - Kicking Bird:

"Tene-angop'te, "The Kicking Bird," or "Eagle Striking," also known as Watohkonk, "Black Eagle," was a Kiowa chief widely known for his wisdom as a leader and his courage and strength as a warrior. Little is known of his early life; his grandfather was a Crow captive who had been adopted into the tribe. As a leader Kicking Bird advocated peace with the Whites.

But no... I guess Russ wants to portray him as a mindless scalping savage: "the first thing that would happen is that KickingBird would scalp 'the white man!" Not a wise leader who seeks peace.

russell said...

Writerfella here --
No, no, no! That was a joke aimed at Rob! Kickingbird in fact was a proof that the Crow people and the Kiowans were the same peoples! There is a legend among Kiowans that says that once two brothers were the leaders of the tribe. They were hunting together and both spotted a deer in the forest. They both mounted arrows and shot at the deer. When they found the slain deer, both of them claimed that it was their arrow that killed the deer. While they were dressing the deer, both claimed the udder, as it was a doe and the udder was a delicacy. The argument over the prize then led them to divide the tribe into twain, and the brothers took their supporters in differing directions. Thus, by legend, the Crow are the Northern Kiowans and this long has been recognized by both tribes. writerfella came to know in 1960 that the PlentyHoops clan of the Crow and the Paddlety clan of the Kiowans are the same family. Consequently, the PlentyHoops clan and the Paddlety clan have had an annual 'family reunion' during the American Indian Exposition held each year in Anadarko, OK. One never can argue with who is the rest of your family...
All Best
\Russ Bates

Rob said...

Fortunately, we know that belonging to a federally recognized tribe is a political matter, not a racial one. That's why many tribes enroll people with less than 1/2 "Indian blood." Much less, in some cases.

Biologically speaking, these people are more white or black than Indian. But they count as Indians because some tribal government has accepted them as citizens. Just as the US does, the tribe has exercised its sovereign right to include whoever it wants as members.

You do know all this, don't you, Russ?

Cole hasn't "claimed" to be Chickasaw. The tribe has claimed him by enrolling him. Nor has Cole claimed to be an Indian racially, as far as I know. Rather, he's claimed to be an Indian culturally and politically. "Politically" means he's met the membership requirements, whatever they are, of a federally recognized tribe.

Get it now? Or do I have to explain federal Indian law another 10 or 20 times?

Rob said...

Actually, the Kiowa language is closely related to the Tanoan languages of New Mexico's Pueblos. It's only uncertainly related to the Uto-Aztecan language group, which may include some Maya languages.

You've implied that the Kiowa descended from the Maya and inherited their cultural qualities. I hope your Kiowa-Maya connection is based on more than languages, because that link seems weak if not nonexistent.

It never made sense that the Maya hopscotched over Mexico and the American Southwest until they reached the Great Plains without leaving a trace of their language or culture on the way. Now your whole story is open to question--as usual.

A Google search for "kiowa maya" suggests that you're the only one talking about a link between the two peoples. If anyone else has posted on the subject, I must've missed it.

The facts on Kiowa-Tanoan languages:


Kiowa-Tanoan (also Tanoan-Kiowa) is a family of languages spoken in New Mexico, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas.

Most of the languages—Tiwa, Tewa, and Towa—are spoken in the Pueblos of New Mexico and called collectively Tanoan, while Kiowa is spoken in mostly southwestern Oklahoma.

The Kiowa-Tanoan family is sometimes hypothesized to be related to the Uto-Aztecan family. This is still being investigated.

Rob said...

Don't worry, I haven't been scalped. The picture was taken the day after one of my ultra-short haircuts. I'll let my hair grow for the next 3-4 months.

P.S. Personally, I wouldn't make a joke about an Indian scalping someone unless it was with a close friend who understood my sense of humor. But no biggie.

russell said...

Writerfella here --
Hey, that's okay. That your hair is thinning and actually disappearing is your own problem, not writerfella's. Plus, that you have not kept up with current levels of anthropological studies is not writerfella's fault, either. Per exemplum, you still believe that Anasazi skeletons reveal a people who only were 42 inches tall. That there are no Hopi people who are 42 inches tall somehow does not preclude you from agreeing to the Hopi claim that THEY are modern descendants of the Anasazi. Proof therefore escapes your arguments very well indeed...
All Best
Russ Bates

Rob said...

I guess you have nothing else to say about Cole's membership in the Chickasaw tribe or the Kiowa's mythical relation to the Maya. You couldn't defend yourself if an ant attacked you.

Unlike me, you've yet to prove you've read a single anthropological study. You know I've read such studies because I cite and quote them.

As for what I said about the "Anasazi," you're basically lying again. Readers can judge the matter for themselves here.

blackseven81 said...

turks and native american is like.turks first come in amerca from tibet.native americans have turk dna %97 and orginally turk language have so much native american words.our culture is like native americans,our symbol is wolf like natice americans.if you look a turk never distinguist with native american our physics of same and so much similaritiy.dont worry native american people we dont kill you like english cowboys.we want to say all world is true realty.history will chance.we love nativeamericans they are our.

Turker said...

hi..mayas fathers is tolmeks .Tolmeks fathers is olmeks. old turks is came to america and teach all things 'ziggurats ,pyramits etc..
to olmeks and marriage whit them
about 40,000 years ago.
we(turks) have a pyramids and they are older than egypts
but nobody dont talk about that
all world hiding like that things..Why???




Rob said...

That's Toltecs and Olmecs, not "tolmeks" and "olmeks."

Nobody did anything worth mentioning 40,000 years ago except maybe draw the first cave painting. In the unlikely event that people crossed from Anatolia to the Americas then, they would've been about 36,500 years too early to meet and marry the Olmecs.

The only specific information I found about a Turkish pyramid was here:


The first Egyptian pyramid is roughly 2,700 years older than this pyramid. Even the first Olmec pyramid is several hundred years older.

delikanLL said...

you right turker..
wolf is holy in our country (same like indians) our cultures is like indians.. we love native americans they are our..

and you CAN NOT deny this..ok????

ali said...

I want to make comment a language connection about us . The continent,named America,its name is coming from a Yakut Turkish word which named ''Emerik'' means a place that two lands getting close.The place must be ''Bering''.So Turks have give a name to new country not americo vespucci.

Rob said...

The wolf isn't "holy" to most of America's hundreds of Native cultures, delikanLL. That's a difference between (your version of) Turkish culture and Native cultures, not a similarity.

In other words, I've just denied what you said I couldn't deny. Oops.

Anonymous said...

some might deny that native americans are related to turks.the latest geneology studies made by a russian scientist reveals that tuvan turks are one example to prove the fact.turks are the only nation who have established states in europe,asia and africa.turks ruled in china,india,egypt,etc.the western historians and archeologists always avoid using turk or turkish.that must be because they either envy the history of turks or they have some sort of complex against them.the native americans have more in common with turks than any other nation.deny it or not but they are closely related to turks.why do the western historians deny the fact that huns are turkish?the hungarian historians and turkeologists have proven that the huns were turkish.it is a fashion these days among some that khazaks are khazaks but not turks.the communist regime taught them so.so,then ottomans were not turkish but ottomans.there is no ottoman race,folks...some people write here just ignorantly and i suggest that they also see the fact that sumerians had skull like those of turks not europeans.their language is agglutinative like the turkish languages.the sumerian language is not indo european.but,the western sovenist historians used to claim that they were the ancestors of europeans.most of u should read to improve their knowledge firs.whoever has a mouth talks here and unfortunately in vain.turks are not like your nations,nor their history is like the westerners'.so,stop that crap and do not write ignorantly.the huns spoke turkish.yakuts have a lot in common with all the turks and native americans.in canada there are names yakot which changes into lakota dakota etc.there are a lot of native american names of places in america which have their cunterparts with no or little difference in turkish.it is hard to accept some facts,isnt it u bullshit rattle pated oppsing people.jerks.

Anonymous said...

hey rob
u better go and rave as wish with your friends.your ancestors have genocided the natives well.they must be in hell now discussing this issue debated here.deny your father instead of jawing here.

Rob said...

Re "it is hard to accept some facts, isnt it": Your statements aren't facts, Anonymous, they're unsubstantiated opinions. When you start providing facts and evidence, citing and quoting your sources, we'll see how hard it is to accept them. Until then, all you're doing is rambling incoherently and ungrammatically.

Some of my ancestors did participate in the genocide of Indians. So what? What does that have to do with my actions hundreds of years later?

You want me to stop "jawing" while you continue spewing your nonsense? If you don't like what I'm saying, get the hell out of here. This is my blog and I'm not going anywhere.

Anonymous said...

ok,rob,this is your blog...no doubt.there are substantial truths,rob.why dont u visit siberian turks,middle asia and turkiye?then,u will see the whole truth with your eyes.see tuvans,khakas and others with your own eyes.analyze the old religion of shmanism of turks and natives if there are left any.analyze the languages,altaic resemblance to many native american languages.and see the genetic relation with the tuvans and other turkic ones of the natives.u can get a lot of information on the net too.most native languages resemble turkish as they are related to the altaic ones.some deny but japanese and korean are also very close to turkish.is it possible to claim that the english are not related to germans?is it possible to claim that arabs are not related to jews?NO!i suggest that u broaden your horizons by putting more effort in citing your opinions.sorry if i angered u.sure,u cant be blamed for what your ancestors had done.then,why are turks blamed for the so called armenian genocide?it is politics...and some historians really have some sort of complexes that prevent them to avoid usind the word,turk.when u read many articles of theirs,u will see that the origins of huns is recited as unknown.the best tukeologists are hungarians and it is they who claim they were turks.did u know that the term hurra for attacking the enemy was adopted by them from the huns?it has no meaning,the historians say.but the hungarian ones say it came down to europe from the huns...''vur ha!''this is turkish,still used by turks.it means 'strike'and ha is an exclamaition used together with that word.i am not ignorant...HU is a word to salute in some native languages.it is also used in turkish.kush,is a word used mayas.it means bird.in tukish it si the same.canada...the name the natives gave to the country...it means island,land full of life.can-life,ada-land.in turkish kan means blood,can means life.ada is land in turkish.i can say hundreds of more here.but i think u will not be convinced and claim perhaps they interacted,the two nations.there is havasu in the states a name given to a place by natives.it means air water.have air and su water.the two words are the same in turkish.here it is no place for academic discussions.so should i sent u all the sources i have?u may as well reach for those,too.i am turkish;tartar and turkoman,namely oghuz...if u had seen my relatives and especially my father u would not doubt how much we are related.some people believe that we evolved and our ancestors are apes.while it is claimed,do u think it sounds logical?no experimental observation can be done to see that happening.but it si asserted that we have a lot of genes in common with apes.this is harder to believe in,isnt it?but,monkeys have no language like ours.but,u should analyze and read about how common linguistic features the turkish languages have with natives,which cannot be simply explained by interaction.sorry if i offended u.but,the debates here do not hold water.i guess u do not know that the tradition of scalping was started by the spanish and other whites in america.the natives retaliated in the same way and the truth was diverted into that the natives did it all the time.i am getting out of your blog now...seeing the ones are mostly ignorant here.u go in search of the facts...i have done that a lot.i am never dogmatic.the legend the inka have'kapaktakon'is very similar to turks'ergenekon.kapaktakon means getting out of the closed area.kapakt inka...kapalı turkish,used now.u know languages evolve in time.i got a lot to tell but nothing can be taught for those who have ignorance and imperception.think about natives.thanks to your ancestors,u live there now...spend as much money on searching for these thingbye,rob...once u analyze the facts academically,u will see that it was only babbling most do here,but,not me...

Anonymous said...

sorry,i had write fast and made a lot of spelling mistakes.believe in anything u want...it is no use.

Rob said...

Yes, it's no use asking you for facts and evidence. Clearly you can't provide them.