Educating Scouts about stereotypes

In Scout Society Stereotypes Indians, Drake X Andrews and others continue to defend the mishmash of stereotypes in the "Tribe of Mic-O-Say," a Scouting organization. Alas, his arguments are almost as pathetic as the stereotypes themselves. Let's take a look.

I asked Andrews a key question based on Wikipedia:Wikipedia says that "Mic-O-Say's ceremonies, customs, and traditions are based on the folklore of the American Indian." Is this statement true or false, youngster?Andrews's reply:Yes… Mic-O-Say's ceremonies, customs, and traditions are based on the folklore of the American Indian

Folklore is the body of expressive culture, including tales, music, dance, legends, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, customs, and so forth within a particular population comprising the traditions (including oral traditions) of that culture, subculture, or group.The second paragraph is an unsourced quote from the Wikipedia entry on folklore.

Actually, there's no such thing as the (singular) folklore of the American Indian. Rather, the 560-plus American Indian tribes have hundreds of different folklores.

I'm pretty sure no one tribe has all the Tribe of Mic-O-Say's stereotypical concepts: chief, sachem, shaman, medicine man, wampum, tom-tom, warrior, brave, etc. In particular, tribes have a chief or a sachem and a shaman or a medicine man, not both.

But if a tribe did have all these concepts, they'd still be stereotypical. Why? Because tribes also have people who aren't chiefs or sachems, shamans or medicine men, and warriors or braves. Depicting Indian tribes as if they consist solely of these roles is stereotypical.

The Tribe of Mic-O-Say isn't based on the genuine (folk)lore of any one tribe. It's based on a mishmash of (folk)lore from many tribes. In other words, it's based on the white man's stereotypical garbling of Indian folklore. Which has been my point all along.

More idiocy from Andrews

Andrews continues:I respect this program to the fullest. Are you a member? Hmm…lets see…Gambling, Casinos…A member of what? The Tribe of Mic-O-Say? Or a genuine Indian tribe? The answer is neither.

But I love what you're implying. Your phony tribe is all about "friendship and leadership." Real Indian tribes are all about gambling and casinos. Therefore, your phony tribe is upholding the values of real Indians--values they themselves have lost.

Thanks for demonstrating how stupid stereotypes warp your view of actual Indians. I'm guessing you don't know jack about the complex reality of Native life today. All you know is what you see in front of you: that Indians are chiefs, shamans, and warriors of the distant past. That they're people who wear costumes, beat drums, and say "How" to each other.

Another Wikipedia quote from Andrews:The Native American name controversy is an ongoing dispute over the acceptable ways to refer to the indigenous peoples of the Americas and to the broad subsets thereof, such as those living in a specific country or sharing certain cultural attributes.I don't know what the point of this quote is, but I covered the subject in "American Indian" vs. "Native American." Read it and learn.

Still more idiocy
Your sophomoric attempt to undermine youth by making fun of them in a good program is sad by someone who is highly educatedWow. How stupid do you have to be to misread my motives this badly?

I'm not trying to "undermine youth." Nor have I made fun of them. I've made fun of the mishmash of stereotypes used by the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. I presume adults who can take criticism are responsible for these stereotypes, not innocent youngsters.

As I think I said, I'm all for programs that strengthen youthful qualities of friendship and leadership. But I claim the phony Indian stereotypes aren't what produce this friendship and leadership. The program doesn't need them to work and would be better off without them.

The evidence proves this categorically. Thousands of youth programs, including Scouting's own Eagle Scouts, succeed without using Native stereotypes. Therefore, the stereotypes are unnecessary.
This program is not public and copyrighted. So, be careful on what you post in pictures and what you make fun of in the colorful words you use!Are you freakin' serious? If there's ever been a better example of the fair-use provision of the copyright law, I can't imagine it. My posting of your pictures for the purpose of commentary and criticism is absolutely protected by the law.

If you don't agree, have your lawyers call mine. I'll countersue the first person who sues me for harassment and intentional infliction of emotional distress. If you want to pay for my retirement, go ahead...make my day.or did you get those degrees from the Internet or mail order. Hmm…accreditation?BA in mathematics, cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, from Occidental College, 1980. MBA and MA in library science from the University of Chicago, 1983. Feel free to call these schools and verify my degrees, lightweight.

Andrews gets teary-eyed
that's right....i am upset... you have attacked an program...made fun of two people...attacked our program...why don't you see the program.I don't need to see the program to see the stereotypes. The articles and postings I quoted listed the stereotypes for us. If I've misstated the stereotypical aspects of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, I'm sure you'll set me straight.

Again, try to think a little. Criticizing the program's stupid stereotypes is completely different from criticizing the program's success at building youth. If you can't understand and address the first point, don't bother writing about the second. Because the second point is irrelevant to my argument.
what is next McDonalds...wait they can and will sue you....if you make fun of clown...aren't they being....Hell, yes, I'll criticize McDonald's if they stereotype Indians. In fact, I've done so several times:

"McIndian" Night
Pin features Ronald McDonald as a chief in a headdress
McDonald's says Native children don't need scholarships

So far McDonald's people haven't sued me. If they do, I'll kick their butts just like I'm kicking yours.

So much for your ignorant opinion that I'm picking on the little boys of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say because I'm afraid of real men like Ronald McDonald. Guess again, doofus.even your comic is sterotypes indiansSince stereotypes are hard to avoid, my PEACE PARTY comics may stereotype Indians in some ways. But unlike you, I've tried to avoid stereotypes.

More to the point, what's the basis for your grammatically challenged claim? I'm pretty sure you haven't read the comics and don't know what they're about.

As for making fun of your revered chiefs, would I do that? I don't think it's necessary because your chiefs are self-created parodies of Indians. But I'll let readers be the judge:











Oops. If it isn't clear, these images are Ronald McDonald and a Tribe of Mic-O-Say chief. Not two Tribe of Mic-O-Say chiefs. I trust you can tell the difference.

If anyone isn't convinced that dressing up as Indians is a problem, try dressing up as Zulu warriors from the 19th century. Rub shoe polish on your faces, don loincloths, and brandish spears. Let us know how it goes.

Does anyone think a Scouting society of Zulu warriors would pass muster? Then why are the Scouts pretending to be old-fashioned Indians? The two scenarios are equally stereotypical. Targeting Indians when you're not willing to target other races is arguably racist.

Some anonymous final thoughts
It is unfortunate that someone "Rob" can have such an opinion without first witnessing the program for himself, or second create and provide a better solution.See above about criticizing the stereotypes, not the program. As for a solution, I've stated my solution twice. Here it is once again: You can do what the Y-Indian Guides have done. Namely, eliminate the faux Indian ceremonies, customs, and traditions in your "tribe."

Don't waste my time raising either of these points again. Repeating questions that I've already answered is a good way to get your comments deleted.
I agree with much what both the blogger and the responders--on each side of this argument have said. It is imperative that we caucasain americans respect the culture of native americans. However, the post begs the question, why does a white guy from California care about a group that he seems to know little about?See Culture and Comics Need Multicultural Perspective 2000 and Why Write About Native Americans? for some answers.Also, I don't believe that it has been said that the Micosay program was developed in conjunction with a Native American chief that was good friends with Micosay's founder (Bartle).Back in the early years of the 20th century, Indians were much closer to the brink of extinction. Therefore, they were much more willing to accommodate the white man's fantasies about Indians. We see this over and over in the creation of Indian mascots.

Since the 1960s and 1970s, that's changed. Hence, the frequent Native protests against the Y-Indian Guides, Indian mascots, and other examples of stereotyping.
The program has changed over the years, yes. But, the core still remains. As is always true, some will inevitably agree with a program, and some will disagree.By "disagree with a program," I presume you mean that some will inevitably agree with its goals while they disagree with its methods. Yes, that's undoubtedly true. And some will inevitably defend stupid stereotypes while people like me criticize them.

For more on the subject, see Indian Wannabes and The Harm of Native Stereotyping:  Facts and Evidence.

Below:  Another tribe of warriors and chiefs for the Boy Scouts to emulate?