Telling the Truth About the Armenian Genocide
We must resist Turkish pressure to distort history.
President Obama comes to this issue with an unusually clear and unambivalent record. In 2006, for example, the U.S. ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, was recalled for employing the word genocide. Then-Sen. Obama wrote a letter of complaint to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, deploring the State Department's cowardice and roundly stating that the occurrence of the Armenian genocide in 1915 "is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence." On the campaign trail last year, he amplified this position, saying that "America deserves a leader who speaks truthfully about the Armenian genocide and responds forcefully to all genocides. I intend to be that president."
The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.
Then when Obama called for good relations between the West and the Muslim world, he did the same thing:
I also want to be clear that America's relationship with the Muslim community, the Muslim world, cannot, and will not, just be based upon opposition to terrorism. We seek broader engagement based on mutual interest and mutual respect. We will listen carefully, we will bridge misunderstandings, and we will seek common ground. We will be respectful, even when we do not agree. We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world--including in my own country. The United States has been enriched by Muslim Americans. Many other Americans have Muslims in their families or have lived in a Muslim-majority country--I know, because I am one of them.
The Turkish legislators applauded.
The last part of this posting isn't about genocide per se. But it shows that Obama has a multicultural perspective. He's willing to see the good (Islamic contributions to civilization) and bad (Turkish genocide of Armenians) in different cultures.
Of course, Obama hasn't been that forceful in denouncing the genocide of Native Americans. He usually couches it in terms of "treatment," "wrongs," or "tragedy." In fact, I'm not sure he's ever explicitly said the US was guilty of genocide against its indigenous inhabitants.
12 comments:
"He's willing to see the good (Islamic contributions to civilization"
The bad far outways the good, for more on the 'Islam fostered an age of science' (the Arabic peoples would have achieved more if they hadn't been enslaved by Islam) read this:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm#science
There are no inferior races but there are inferior cultures and religions; Islam is nothing more than a barbaric. And frankly I'm sickened by Obama's 'respect' for a religion that preaches hatred, bigotry, misogyny and so on. The Quran, Hadith etc. are worse than Mein Kampf; this is the equivalent of Obama posting on stormfront and telling them about 'deep appreciation' for national socialism.
I wonder if Obama's will to see the good that Mussolini's Italty or Stalin's Russia produced? Oh and do you know what Hitler said when asked if they'd punished for the holocaust? "Nobody remembers the Armenians." Plus while Hitler was in power, the Palestinians collaborated with the Nazis. The Palestinian Mufti actually begged Hitler to bring the Holocaust to Palestine to get rid of the Jews.
Also it's revolting how he speaks of a religion of hate in such a positive tone and speaks of the US in a negative tone. Why doesn't he just pay the Jizya and get it over with?
Stephen, I've had Muslim friends who are quite reasonable people. I don't have any Nazi friends, but I can't imagine that they'd be very reasonable.
I don't think that it is fair at all to equate all or even most of modern Islam with something as bad as Nazism communism. While it is certainly fair to compare the genocidal and totalitarian brand of Islam pushed by Hamas, bin Laden, etc as rather like Nazism.
As for the middle ages and the achievments of the Islamic Empire, of course it is terribly barbaric and backwards by today's standards. But compared to medieval Europe, it wasn't nearly as bad, and was sometimes better. This resulted in situations such as in Iberia. Under Muslim rule, Jews were tolerated, even if treated as 2nd class citizens. The people (theocratic Christians) who kicked the Muslims out subjected the Jews in Iberia to terror, expulsion, execution, and pogroms.
Also, modern Islam is not contradictory to civilization, nor is it necessarily barbaric. Notice where Obama gave his speech. It was in Turkey. Turkey is an overwhelmingly Islamic nation, but it is also a secular one. As a result, it is much more moderate and reasonable than most other Muslim nations (and is much less barbaric than certain mostly- Christian nations such as Serbia).
Then it starts to look like the real problem is not with Islam, but with governments forcing it on people. And in this Islam is really no worse than what happens with other religions in theocracy (see Middle Ages post-Muslim Christian Spain and the rest of Christian Europe).
As president, Obama did NOT re-hire John Evans. The current ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, hasn't used the "A" word and "G" word in the same sentence.
Obama's record on the Armenian Genocide as President (as opposed to candidate looking for votes) is identical to President Bush's. And President Clinton's.
If you call the Armenian Genocide the Armenian Genocide in Turkey you will be criminally prosecuted for "insulting Turkishness". Of note: there is no law against "insulting Americanness" in America.
"Stephen, I've had Muslim friends who are quite reasonable people. I don't have any Nazi friends, but I can't imagine that they'd be very reasonable."
Here's the thing; I'm talking about Islam not muslims in general; I think the movie the departed is stupid but I don't think departed fans in general are stupid, catch my drift? And yes I know Muslims I have a few long distance pals in Morocco; nice people I just always avoid the topic of theology. ;)
"I don't think that it is fair at all to equate all or even most of modern Islam with something as bad as Nazism communism. While it is certainly fair to compare the genocidal and totalitarian brand of Islam pushed by Hamas, bin Laden, etc as rather like Nazism."
Actually it's very fair, scroll down to the verses I posted here:
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/03/1923-letter-to-indians.html
So the 'Islam is alright it's just a few fanatics twisting it' myth is just that; a myth, Islam is a religion of hate. Hitler actually wished that Germany was Muslim rather than Christian (since it would have made the holocaust easier).
"As for the middle ages and the achievments of the Islamic Empire, of course it is terribly barbaric and backwards by today's standards. But compared to medieval Europe, it wasn't nearly as bad, and was sometimes better."
Except that Norse and Celtic cultures for example were obviously superior to Islam; look at how much equality women had under traditional Gaelic societies for example. Unlike Muslims the Norse didn't conquer because of religious beliefs but because they lived in misery. And even despite those conditions Europe has given us the Renniassance and so on, while Islamic 'achievements'...well I assume you read that link.
"This resulted in situations such as in Iberia. Under Muslim rule, Jews were tolerated, even if treated as 2nd class citizens. The people (theocratic Christians) who kicked the Muslims out subjected the Jews in Iberia to terror, expulsion, execution, and pogroms."
No argument there.
"Also, modern Islam is not contradictory to civilization, nor is it necessarily barbaric. Notice where Obama gave his speech. It was in Turkey. Turkey is an overwhelmingly Islamic nation, but it is also a secular one. As a result, it is much more moderate and reasonable than most other Muslim nations (and is much less barbaric than certain mostly- Christian nations such as Serbia)."
If Turkey's the best example then that isn't saying much; in Turkey people are imprisoned for exercising their right to free speech. Turkey is the closest thing to a democracy in the Islamic countries of the Middle East, and even that's only because the military threatens coups any time it worries that the Islamists are getting too strong.
"Then it starts to look like the real problem is not with Islam, but with governments forcing it on people."
I disagree as evidenced by those verses (only a few examples of how putrid Islam is) and what's currently going on in the Muslim world I'd say Islam is a serious problem.
"And in this Islam is really no worse than what happens with other religions in theocracy (see Middle Ages post-Muslim Christian Spain and the rest of Christian Europe)."
Except that in at least one year more people were killed by Islamic terrorists (which is supported by their twisted book) than the Spanish inquisition. And Islam is far worse than many other religions. The source for that can found here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
And the Bible is superior to Quran, hadiths etc. While I'm not uncritical of the Bible Jesus's teachings are obviously superior to Mohammed's foul teachings and actions (Jesus never raped a nine year old).
Also note the afrocentic undertones, he basically says, "in America my people have gone through slavery and segregation, oh yeah and those guys who look like mexicans in south dakota or wherever also had a litte bit of a hard time..or something."
"Except that in at least one year more people were killed by Islamic terrorists (which is supported by their twisted book) than the Spanish inquisition."
Which year was this?
"And even despite those conditions Europe has given us the Renniassance and so on"
Which did not happen in a vacuum, and happened with some influence from the Islamic culture to the east.
In another post, you bashed Obama for praising a religion of hate that allowed slavery. Unfortunately, for long stretches of history, the same could have been said of Christianity in general. Or what if Obama had gone to Serbia in 1995 and praised the Serbian Orthodox Church which was then strongly urging a holy war against the indiginous Muslim people of Kosovo and Bosnia?
Aa for the list of horrid quotes from the Quran, are you aware of the lists of verses from Deuteronomy/etc selectively used by some to claim that Christianity is a religion of hate?
I know Islam has its problems. It appears to have been founded by a beastly individual. But I just do not see it in a black and white "barbaric" light.
Also, by praising Islam in Turkey, Obama is not just being diplomatic, he is being shrewd. We simply can't win the war of ideas against Al Qeada if we lump all Muslims in with them. I'd rather have the good moderate Muslims on our side, rather than enticed to join bin Laden's truly barbaric cause.
Also, "I disagree as evidenced by those verses (only a few examples of how putrid Islam is) and what's currently going on in the Muslim world I'd say Islam is a serious problem."
The Muslim world. Let's see. Although it is pretty much over, there was recently a big problem in the Muslim world nations of Bosnia and Kosovo recently. Genocide, religious oppression, rape camps, and all. And guess what? It was the Christians who were causing it, and the Muslims were victims.
"Which did not happen in a vacuum, and happened with some influence from the Islamic culture to the east."
Read the link about middle eastern contributions; the Arabs that did contribute were either heretics and didn't practice Islam and even without them the Renniassance and Age of Enlightment still probably would have happened.
"In another post, you bashed Obama for praising a religion of hate that allowed slavery. Unfortunately, for long stretches of history, the same could have been said of Christianity in general."
See the point I made below about Christianity.
"Or what if Obama had gone to Serbia in 1995 and praised the Serbian Orthodox Church which was then strongly urging a holy war against the indiginous Muslim people of Kosovo and Bosnia?"
I'd find that equally repulsive.
"As for the list of horrid quotes from the Quran, are you aware of the lists of verses from Deuteronomy/etc selectively used by some to claim that Christianity is a religion of hate?"
Except that Islam is far worse; compare Jesus to Mohammed, Jesus preached pacifism and so on, Muhammed preached violence (although Muslims are forbidden to harm one another), raped a nine year old, advised his men on how to rape women captured in battle and so on. Also Jesus clearly rejected the old testament teachings (ie let he who is without sin cast the first stone).
"I know Islam has its problems. It appears to have been founded by a beastly individual. But I just do not see it in a black and white "barbaric" light."
Well it is barbaric, what else do you call a religion that preaches bigotry, allows slavery (slavery existed openly in Saudi Arabia until the 1960s), tells people to kill homosexuals etc? And calling Mohammed 'beastly' is actually understatement, he was a rapist, a pedophile, bandit, engaged in slave trade etc. Not to mention Muslims are told to emulate Mohammed.
"Also, by praising Islam in Turkey, Obama is not just being diplomatic, he is being shrewd. We simply can't win the war of ideas against Al Qeada if we lump all Muslims in with them. I'd rather have the good moderate Muslims on our side, rather than enticed to join bin Laden's truly barbaric cause."
I understand why he did it, it still repulses me.
"The Muslim world. Let's see. Although it is pretty much over, there was recently a big problem in the Muslim world nations of Bosnia and Kosovo recently. Genocide, religious oppression, rape camps, and all. And guess what? It was the Christians who were causing it, and the Muslims were victims."
Except that the teachings of Christ don't support such actions (Islam does) and while it was horrible the deaths in Bosnia and Kosovo are dwarfed by the Armenian and Darfur genocides. Getting back to the inquisition the highest estimate for it's death toll is 7,000 which is dwarfed by the Armenian genocide alone.
So you're prejudiced against Muslims as well as prejudiced for whites, Stephen? No big surprise there.
For a rebuttal to your many false or misleading claims, see Educating Stephen About Islam.
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